101 replies to this topic

[Adax]

Nice letter Danny, I will not be attending so I probably should not have my name on it.

A suggestion: since the "cars" are equal (as you state), change faster "cars" to faster "drivers" throughout the letter.

AC

[William Keeling]

Craig... I'm not sure LoneStar is really driving this ship. This is a Majors event... and it's COTA

don't look like anyone is at the helm

[Jim Drago]

Online Registration for the 2013 BFGoodrich Tires COTA Super Tour will open at 3:00 PM Central Time on Monday, January 21, 2013. Before registering for the event read the Supplemental Regulations found here. The online registration will be available here on DLBRacing.com. MC, VISA and Discover accepted.

The Lone Star Region, SCCA greatly appreciates your patience and understanding over the past week and promises to bring you an exciting event at the Circuit of The Americas, March 8-10, 2013.

Please feel free to contact us with questions;
Roger Krebs, Race Chair
Beth Mills, Registrar
Paula Taylor, Registrar

[zoomzoom22]

Worth noting, SM isn't the only group that thinks a full day of practice and single 15 minute sessions, 30 minute races is a nicely done schedule. That being said:

If Friday was instead 15 minute qually #1 for Saturday race and afternoon 15 minute qually #1 for Sunday. 2nd qualifying sessions would be the. Morning of the race, 15 minute session.

This would effectively reduce everyone's 50 minutes of Friday practice to 30 minutes which would be a better schedule, safer and would free up 7 groups x 20 mins of time saved in the schedule, 2 hours and 20 minutes to try to split SM qualifying in half to be a safer deal for SM given the large numbers.

2 cents.

[Johnny D]

I know it sucks for everyone that we pay the same fee and get essentially less track time than other run groups but the fact of the matter is that there is only so much daylight and we're going to have to give a little to get something in return.
MD

No dog in this hunt but how about...

Have as many people sign up as possibe, open reg, no race to get in.
"IF" we get 80+, I know the other groups will love us, but...
How about group 8, so you get as much time as every other group.
Split the 80+ into 2 qual groups. Half the cluster.
Upper half races Grp 1, lower Grp 8. Should be very close races.
Fastest laptime from both Races (1 & 8) sets 2nd (1 & 8) Race.
25 min practice Friday morning. or whatever the new 1/8th is.
25 min of qual Friday afternoon.
15 min of practice Sat and Sunday before race unless you want to combine for a longer race.
J~

[Danny Steyn]

I heard back from Roger Krebs that they are looking into the schedule, he mentioned there were several requests about it, but he said that there was no way the first session was going to be a qualifying session, due to this being the first time most drivers would be on the track.

Also heard from Butch Kummer that they were looking into the schedule but he did not elaborate. Jeff Danhert is also aware of the concerns. So I think we should let the professionals make the difficult decisions and compromises and see where this leads

Will keep you updated if I hear anything more.

[FullThrottle64]

Ok, here is my suggestion:

1. Each entrant pays the same $ whether they are in a group of 25 or 85 so each should have the same opportunity to qualify. They should have no more than 30 cars on the track during qualifying, so break the SM group into three groups of 28 cars. Allow each of the three groups one warm-up lap, two hot laps, and one cool down lap. That should take approximately 12 minutes for a total of 36 minutes.

2. Reduce the minutes other groups have to qualify so that the total qualifying time is as originally scheduled.

So, you are suggesting that SM gets to break into 3 groups of 28 cars, each with 12 minutes, but then you would want to shorten another groups that has 40-50 cars in it?

That will never happen. In reality, SM (and SRF if they were to have a dedicated run group) stand the best chance of getting clean laps of ANY group of cars, because it's all one class.

Look at the mixed sedan groups (GT) and ask yourself what chance they have of getting a clean lap, even if they only have 40-50 cars. The GT-1s will be lapping them before they get the green......

[Cnj]

So, you are suggesting that SM gets to break into 3 groups of 28 cars, each with 12 minutes, but then you would want to shorten another groups that has 40-50 cars in it?

That will never happen. In reality, SM (and SRF if they were to have a dedicated run group) stand the best chance of getting clean laps of ANY group of cars, because it's all one class.

Look at the mixed sedan groups (GT) and ask yourself what chance they have of getting a clean lap, even if they only have 40-50 cars. The GT-1s will be lapping them before they get the green......

You make a good point. I suspect however that Pat was suggesting that ALL groups of qualifying cars be limited to 30? Its of course perhaps a moot point us making suggestions as it seems Topeka and SOM are (hopefully) really thinking this through and will generate a solution...

Incidently I suspect that SRF will have over 60 cars and may be the only other group to do so - with the exception of the mixed group with STL if many SM drivers decide to double dip. In reality I suspect we would not be debating this so hotly if we had even 5 more minutes for qualifying - which while not ideal, would reduce risk considerably for groups with over say 60 cars.

CNJ.

[FullThrottle64]

You make a good point. I suspect however that Pat was suggesting that ALL groups of qualifying cars be limited to 30?

I'm not sure I understand why this is necessary on a 4-mile track - seriously. SM laptimes will be what - 2:30+? That's 150 seconds. Even with 85 cars, that's almost 2 seconds between. Now I realize that actual laptimes will vary by probably 7-8 seconds from best to worst, but even at that it's not a complete disaster unless you want it to be; the leader will get 6 or 7 laps in Qual, right? As long as the guy at the front of the qual grid doesn't run his warm-up lap at full song, it should be OK.

In all seriousness, imagine what the group with GT-1 and T-2 will be dealing with....

Incidently I suspect that SRF will have over 60 cars and may be the only other group to do so - with the exception of the mixed group with STL if many SM drivers decide to double dip. In reality I suspect we would not be debating this so hotly if we had even 5 more minutes for qualifying - which while not ideal, would reduce risk considerably for groups with over say 60 cars.

I'm not sure I'd bet on the other groups not getting a turnout. I'd expect a lot of the faster open-wheel guys to see this is a track designed for their cars, and will find a way to show up. Add the world-class track to the fact that it's basically a double-points, two-race weekend, and it's a VERY attractive proposition. I may be wrong, but I honestly expect to see run groups of 50 or more (with the possible exception of FF/F500/FV - I can't imagine those straights being much fun in a Vee....)

I'd also ask how this is really that different from the Runoffs or Sprints (though admittedly the 2011 Sprints was a screw-up of epic proportions), or the FF 40th Anniversary event at Road America a few years ago. I just don't think it's really that bad.....

[Jim Drago]

In all seriousness, imagine what the group with GT-1 and T-2 will be dealing with....

A GT1 car will blow by a T2 so fast there will be little congestion, a SM running lap times 3 seconds a lap faster than another SM does not insure a quick pass because the cars are so similar in straight line

[FullThrottle64]

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A GT1 car will blow by a T2 so fast there will be little congestion, a SM running lap times 3 seconds a lap faster than another SM does not insure a quick pass because the cars are so similar in straight line

Not to beat this horse to death, but the bigger issue isn't the straights - I agree that the big HP difference generally makes passing easier if you can get it done no a long straight. It's the fact that cornering speeds are WAY different between different classes of cars - they're not even running the same types of tires. SM/SRF are dealing with a relatively small laptime difference and generally the same level of grip and HP, while the mixed class groups have all sorts of differing characteristics separating them.

The biggest difference in SM/SRF is driver and car setup/prep.......and yes, that can be big enough to create issues, but that's the same in all of the run groups. All of us have to learn when to back off and create a gap; the problem is that some of us apparently think it's better to force a bad pass than to think ahead and set up a clean flyer lap.

Here's a suggestion: Have the warmup lap run under yellow until the first car reaches the flagstand and takes the green, Now, get the guy at the front of the grid to agree to hold a pace-lap speed until the last corner onto the front straight. [This is how MARRS does it, and it's a decent aproach for SM.] It wouldn't completely solve the issue (since the gridding will be effectively random) but at least you know you've got some time before anyone gets lapped.....

[davew]

The issue will be similar for all race groups with large number of entries. I think it is a safe bet, that group 1 will be fully subscribed or close to it. That would give us maximum problems.

If you are the first car in line and do a 3 minute warm-up lap, that cuts your qualifying time down to only 12 minutes. Using a 2:30 lap you will only get 5 flying laps. If you are the last guy in line, you will only get 4 flying laps. Is that the procedure we want to use at a race with this much potential?

Dave

[Jim Drago]

64 your making my point..
Sm and SRf will be close pretty much everywhere= congestion and hard passing
Gt1 and T2 will be so different they can maneuver through the field much easier.

[MPR22]

I'm not sure I understand why this is necessary on a 4-mile track - seriously. SM laptimes will be what - 2:30+? That's 150 seconds. Even with 85 cars, that's almost 2 seconds between. Now I realize that actual laptimes will vary by probably 7-8 seconds from best to worst, but even at that it's not a complete disaster unless you want it to be; the leader will get 6 or 7 laps in Qual, right? As long as the guy at the front of the qual grid doesn't run his warm-up lap at full song, it should be OK.

Ok this is full of bad assumptions.

The the track is 3.427 miles not 4.
Fastest lap times will probably be in the 2:41-2:42 range.
Slowest lap times will be at least +15 seconds slower.
2 seconds between cars sounds good but I have never seen a group go out with perfect 2 second gaps, and maintains that will never happen. The East Street boys go out and by turn 11 they will be full on the wood. The stragglers coming out if the pits will be heading into the esses at best when the East Street pack catches them. Now tell Drago to be patient while a huge stack of cars is occurring while they wait for the slow folks to slip and slide trying to go too fast on cold tires. Now Drago gets on the back straight and even he can't pass the back markers because they drag race him to turn 12. Oh by the way we are officially 4.5 to 5 minutes into a 15 minute qualifying. By the time we make it back to S/F we are 6 minutes in and it's full course yellow its basically game over. Now Drago got in a nice 2:52 and qualified 32nd, which come race time he is a good 1.5 seconds a lap faster than 15 cars in front of him. Enjoy the 30 minute race. And it gets even better if the do Sun qual by lap time because he might be 12-15 then.

Please sign up and join the SM race so you can enjoy the 1 lap qualifying.

Yes I'm complaining based on a theory of how this will shake out, based on the theory the sups will not change. It doesn't take a pessimist to imagine this scenario, just a realist.

[FullThrottle64]

If you are the first car in line and do a 3 minute warm-up lap, that cuts your qualifying time down to only 12 minutes.

I was under the impression that the timer doesn't start until the green flies. Am I missing something?

64 your making my point..
Sm and SRf will be close pretty much everywhere= congestion and hard passing
Gt1 and T2 will be so different they can maneuver through the field much easier.

Sorry, but this is flat wrong. How many cars will a GT-1 catch in a lap, vs. how many even the pole-sitting SM or SRF catch? A single-class group allows you to back off and get a clean lap (or at least close to it), while a mixed-class group guarantees that you''ll run up on traffic every single lap - multiple times.

I've run in single-class groups and mixed-class groups, and as both the fastest and slowest class within a given group; I'll take single-class qualifying over multi-class any day of the week. Yes, it can be a pain if you get behind someone who is 1-2 seconds slower than you are but has a strong engine, but that's the way it is in club racing.

What this really boils down to is that you're complaining about the fact that it's liable to be a full field and you might have to deal with a bunch of other cars on track.

[zoomzoom22]

With registration about to open for round 2, why hasn't the schedule been fixed. Clearly this isn't a workable schedule and should be fixed before registration opens and people decide to register, not register etc.

Everything about this is turning not a circus and getting worse. We are trying to remind ourselves why $1650 in garage plus 2 entries and then another 2k in expenses is wor it for a Mickey mouse event dominated by practice time.

Lee can you offer an opinion on whether the schedule is likely to change or not? Seemes like it wouldn't be too hard for someone to at least say whether the schedule is hardened or is likely to change based on the overwhelming competitor feedback.

[Todd Lamb]

A single-class group allows you to back off and get a clean lap (or at least close to it), while a mixed-class group guarantees that you''ll run up on traffic every single lap - multiple times.

Incorrect.....there's no backing off to get a clean lap when others are trying to do the same, and cars are 5-6 seconds a lap slower.

In a class where .5 seconds could be the difference between 1st and 21st, that's a simple driver error. Being held up 2-3 seconds per lap by slower cars is a reality and will be the difference between 1st and 50th.

[Johnny D]

Would having Times in Fridays practice help presort for qual, or if you split qual in half?
Kind of prequal, qual info.
J~

[Jim Drago]

I was under the impression that the timer doesn't start until the green flies. Am I missing something?



Sorry, but this is flat wrong. How many cars will a GT-1 catch in a lap, vs. how many even the pole-sitting SM or SRF catch? A single-class group allows you to back off and get a clean lap (or at least close to it), while a mixed-class group guarantees that you''ll run up on traffic every single lap - multiple times.

I've run in single-class groups and mixed-class groups, and as both the fastest and slowest class within a given group; I'll take single-class qualifying over multi-class any day of the week. Yes, it can be a pain if you get behind someone who is 1-2 seconds slower than you are but has a strong engine, but that's the way it is in club racing.

What this really boils down to is that you're complaining about the fact that it's liable to be a full field and you might have to deal with a bunch of other cars on track.

Not me, I have never done anything like that before. I will have NO problem qualifying my STL car in mixed class especially when compared to SM. STL qualifying ( just like GT1) means 10x less than SM or SRF. So many will be so similar in SM and SRF, not so much so in GT1,STL and T2. The fastest car in GT1 will easily get to the lead and win the race, regardless f qualifying position. Two or three guys have a chance at winning in those classes, easily 10+ can win in SM or SRF. With all due respect, the "races" in those classes RARELY compare with SM or SRF, the fields are typically 5-10x deeper in SM&SRF. All of those things matter. I couldn't disagree with you more.. But what do I know. We will just have to agree to disagree.

[Waterboy]

[This is how MARRS does it, and it's a decent aproach for SM.] It wouldn't completely solve the issue (since the gridding will be effectively random) but at least you know you've got some time before anyone gets lapped.....

Works well for marrs but not for this race. In marrs series we have averaged around 35 cars the last two years so 17 cars per mile. This race will be 25 per mile, big difference. Plus the fact no one has any experience on this track and most have never raced one another. Marrs it's the same guys every race. Even then after two laps we've caught back markers.