86 replies to this topic

[Bench Racer]

A better comparison would be our best 1.6 and our best 99.
But no one is debating that the 1.6 makes less TQ than a 99, HP is debatable. That is why it weighs 100 lbs less. 

 

I like your comparison better also.   When will your best horse power with torque graph for a 1.6 and 99 be e-mailed? Some may have conceded, but not all. Some get tired of being beat on. If you don't want your numbers posted, none will be posted. If your numbers prove I'm talking out of my a _ _ you will never see a similar post.

[Jim Drago]

 

I like your comparison better also.   When will your best horse power with torque graph for a 1.6 and 99 be e-mailed? Some may have conceded, but not all. Some get tired of being beat on. If you don't want your numbers posted, none will be posted. If your numbers prove I'm talking out of my a _ _ you will never see a similar post.

 

I don't which end you are talking out of? I have no idea what you are trying to prove? Tell me what you feel you are still trying to prove or is not conceded so I can at least respond appropriately..

 

Ahh you got me started again.. Start another thread

Jim

[Bench Racer]

Ahh you got me started again.. Start another thread

Jim

 

Your no fun.  Go to Texas and play with your cars.

[john mueller]

I was in attendance of this event but a failing master cylinder at a very inopportune time had me take a wild ride into Nova Brown.  Nova is okay, banged-up but thankfully okay.  My weekend was done so I got to watch Sunday's qualifying race (grid set by inverting the results from Saturdays main, DNF, DNS & DQ's at the rear).  I left shortly after the qualifying race as not to influence any of the process or decision making post main race.

 

One of the benefits of enjoying the close parity we have now is it is rather evident when someone is deep into the gray.  Yeah, someone may find "something" but it's probably not a big enough something to allow a single 1.6 SM to pull away from a drafting tandem of big-bore Porsche 944's on a speedway oval.  This is what I and several crew, parents and NASA officials saw during that race.  But the most heated ire came from the drivers who were on the track.  The NASA process was followed and no protest was filed.  Post Dyno of the top two cars the head of SoCal Tech ordered the cams of the P1 car to be removed, the driver/owners refused, choosing a DQ instead.
 

At this time I am still unaware of additional sanctions or penalties that are spelled out in the NASA CCRs.  But I am inquiring.  I am researching options to document penalties for at least SM should none exist.
 

I don't have it out for anyone (well, except for Caveboy Kyle ) but IMO there has to be hooks in NASAs rules to protect the parity we now have.  I personally took too much $hit to just let it get pissed on.

[Jim Boemler]

I am deeply offended by this blatant display of violence toward poor defenseless horses. Be glad it's not a moose or I'd really be steamed.

If it's any consolation, my car was always measured in squirrel-power.

[Rob Burgoon]

Well as nice as it is to have it documented, this is NASA.  You can do whatever is appropriate to ensure long term health of the NASA business, if that means a 6 month ban, or a 2 event ban and requirement to visit the dyno at their cost before the next one.

[FTodaro]

Your no fun.  Go to Texas and play with your cars.

I intentionally did not respond to your post , but Drago had to kick the can. I do not hold myself out to be smart enought to enter this debate, all I can tell you is that at my home track, Mid O the 1.6 is the car to beat on most weekends, with a good pilot that 100 lb advantage is huge. 2012 regional champ was John Guthrie, with a 1.6.

Dave Now Start another thread

[john mueller]

Well as nice as it is to have it documented, this is NASA.  You can do whatever is appropriate to ensure long term health of the NASA business, if that means a 6 month ban, or a 2 event ban and requirement to visit the dyno at their cost before the next one.

 

Agreed.  My concern here is the integrity of enforcing our rules...  I see it that if folks who feel they should contend for a win can't due to unfair competition they may pull their participation.  My job is to get it right to support the competition and the business.

[Rob Burgoon]

FWIW Bare minimum I think he needs to do a witnessed dyno run at his cost before his next race, like on a saturday morning.

 

Then submit to a valve cover-off visual on saturday and play it from there.

 

As far as how hard to swing the ban hammer, perhaps having father and son work corners for a weekend would be best.

[fishguyaz]

after reading this more it seems it would benefit both clubs if the refusal of tech inspection post race was a ding on the cars logbook and the drivers race license.

if it carried over to both clubs it would solve a lot and be a large® deterent.................a gentle nugde to the powers that be.

[Rob Burgoon]

after reading this more it seems it would benefit both clubs if the refusal of tech inspection post race was a ding on the cars logbook and the drivers race license.

if it carried over to both clubs it would solve a lot and be a large® deterent.................a gentle nugde to the powers that be.

 

NASA could, but no way in h3ll would SCCA honor it.  They have a process.

[Tom Sager]

  Are you implyng any of those thousand were started by me? This seemed like an appropriate thread to throw out the comment for discussion. Please e-mail me a horsepower with torque graph showing the same numbers you list in your motors for sale adds for a 99. I'll do an overlay using my 1.6 numbers on the 99 you e-mail. If your 99 numbers prove that I'm talking out of my a _ _ you will never see a similar post.

 

 

Dave, I think you'll have a picture of Jim mooning you long before he'll send you his dyno plots. 

[Blake Thompson]

after reading this more it seems it would benefit both clubs if the refusal of tech inspection post race was a ding on the cars logbook and the drivers race license.

if it carried over to both clubs it would solve a lot and be a large® deterent.................a gentle nugde to the powers that be.

People choose to race NASA partly because it's not part of the SCCA totalitarianism.  Imagine the hyper tension caused by such a similar suggestion in any other forms of governance!

[Ron Alan]

People choose to race NASA partly because it's not part of the SCCA totalitarianism.  Imagine the hyper tension caused by such a similar suggestion in any other forms of governance!

 

 I have no problem with either club...they both have their good and bad points, real and perceived! I find your statement interesting because at least in our region(Home of the NASA owner), decisions can be handed down swiftly and final...almost dictatorial with no appeal(Sorry if I'm totally wrong here, just based on a few observations). SCCA has a lot of rules but there is a process! Ironically, as much as Rob B tends to poopoo SCCA at times, he rightfully so is asking that NASA have something in place for this situation(As SCCA does). As much as NASA and SCCA have come together on the basic rule set for SM, they still are competing for the same dollars and I imagine want to remain as autonomous as possible. Fishguyaz statement is a little optimistic...lets be thankful each org. recognizes each others licences! 

[Jamz14]

Opinion Only.

 

Personally I think that both organizations have this under control and that both work.

 

I like the openness and leeway of the NASA system. It allows them to make quick, dynamic decisions that reflect situational circumstances. I like that. And I have no doubt that the absence of a formal policy for teardown refusal will not stop them from implementing penalties if warranted. I can envision scenarios of refusing a teardown that has nothing to do with hiding what is on your car. As matter of fact I believe one of the scenarios I envision was used in this case as justification for not complying with the request. Don't get me wrong, I am not suggesting that the refusal reason used in this case was genuine. Just that I can imagine it as genuine in some cases.

 

I think the SCCA system is good too. I like transparency and I like the rules of engagement known in advance. I accept that to provide that transparency, the system can be somewhat bureaucratic and slow.

 

Two different ways to skin the cat. One minor concern; I fear that a very bright driver would be much more crafty in disguising the speed with illegal mods. Just uses the extra power to stay ahead and to mask mistakes. However, this is still the case regardless of the different rule sets so a moot issue really. So if we are voting, I vote for status quo.

[john mueller]

Okay, I finally have enough of the back story and facts of how this sort of thing is adjudicated within NASA:

 

 

NASA does not have a 'hard' rule on what penalties should be in their CCRs for tech refusal, the Race Director assigns penalty on the spot.  This case took place at a 'regional' event was the driver/owners first offense and they were headed to COTA for the SCCA event.  The Race Director felt a the single race DQ with no additional penalties (did not run Saturday) was reasonable.  However, should refusal to tech become a regular occurrence or for this or any driver and in SoCal or any region, I'd expect NASA to become more specific in the CCRs.

 

 

I hope this helps clear any lingering questions.

[FTodaro]

No matter how SCCA or NASA handle the situation. that driver/owner team has likly lost the respect of fellow competitiors and any time they are doing well the back story will be that they are cheaters. that is what comes with that conduct.

[pat slattery]

I intentionally did not respond to your post , but Drago had to kick the can. I do not hold myself out to be smart enought to enter this debate, all I can tell you is that at my home track, Mid O the 1.6 is the car to beat on most weekends, with a good pilot that 100 lb advantage is huge. 2012 regional champ was John Guthrie, with a 1.6.

Dave Now Start another thread

 

Frank, how many times did Yannis win in a National field in a 99 last year at Mid Oh

[FTodaro]

Frank, how many times did Yannis win in a National field in a 99 last year at Mid Oh

Ok I will bite, lets talk NASA for a moment, how did Chris Williams and Hillie do last year?

[Rob Burgoon]

No matter how SCCA or NASA handle the situation. that driver/owner team has likly lost the respect of fellow competitiors and any time they are doing well the back story will be that they are cheaters. that is what comes with that conduct.

 

Hah, he lost my respect in his first race weekend.  It didn't take him long.  But yeah, one more nail in the coffin.