140 replies to this topic

[pat slattery]

What happened to my entry level sm

[Caveman-kwebb99]

What happened to my entry level sm

 

 

Your son is still driving it last i checked!!!! LOL

[Jim Drago]

Check out my build blog (link in sig) and you can see where $40K goes pretty fast. I won't have quite that much in it but only because I'm not paying myself for labor (I did everything but motor and paint). There are many placed to drop serious coin and when you spend $700 each race weekend in tires alone, an additional $500 here and there to make the build a bit nicer seems easy to justify.

 

AC

Alan

This is an exceptional build! I hardly look at the blogs. I can't wait to see. Very nice, your build quality is much appreciated!

[Keith Andrews]

Check out my build blog (link in sig) and you can see where $40K goes pretty fast. I won't have quite that much in it but only because I'm not paying myself for labor (I did everything but motor and paint). There are many placed to drop serious coin and when you spend $700 each race weekend in tires alone, an additional $500 here and there to make the build a bit nicer seems easy to justify.

 

AC

 

Alan I just checked your blog.  What an amazing build bordering on insanity     The carbon fiber work is fantastic. 

[Tom Sager]

Time to reinstate the claiming rule SCCA had in the '70's.  

[Bruce Wilson]

What happened to my entry level sm

 

Ask Matt Schultz (Nasa Champ) what it took to build his car.  He did everything himself and built his own motor.  You don't have to spend 40k...  Outsourcing work and replacing every with new isn't necessary.  Think of the premium as insurance if you want a no expenses spared program...

[Todd Tagget]

Ask Matt Schultz (Nasa Champ) what it took to build his car.  He did everything himself and built his own motor.  You don't have to spend 40k...  Outsourcing work and replacing every with new isn't necessary.  Think of the premium as insurance if you want a no expenses spared program...

and ask Kyle what he has into his (2nd place Nasa nationals this year) total shoe string budget..

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

I understand that this is a part of racing ( R&D) and with R&D comes $. But IMO it also can and will hurt this class. The reason I say this is, because if everyone could afford a Ferrari there would be tons of them on the road. But they can't so they drive a Camry and some can't afford a Camry so they take the bus. My point is,we have 30k to 40k cars out there and for someone starting out see's this and thinks there is no way in hell I can afford that so it keeps them out of the sport (our class). Nobody gets into racing and says I'm fine with a 6-10k car and fine with being in the top 20 to 15 positions. They get into racing for the excitement and competition and the hope of one day being on the podium. But they never will because they can't afford a competitive car less then 20 to 25k.

That's one of the reasons I got into this class was the competition and the price of the class. When I started a well tuned stock motor can get you in the top 5 and top 3. Now a 115hp is a joke and your lucky to get into the top 15 with it maybe top 10 if your a good driver. I just wish there was some way to keep the prices from getting out of control so we can get some new drivers to join in and get the car counts back up we're they used to be.

IMO this is some of the reason car counts are down and the reason a lot of good and great drives left sm.



Just thinking out loud,not trying to get anyone upset !

[LarryKing]

Random thoughts:

 

When you buy a $40K SM do you tell your spouse how much you spent? I imagine this conversation:

She: "Honey did you buy a $40,000 Miata?"

He: "YEAH!"

She: "You idiot. I'm going shopping."

 

I admire the sales pitch "Find out once and for all if it's you or the car," but suppose J. Richard Rich, Esq., buys that car and immediately determines that, yes, it is indeed he that sucks. Then what? Go Grand Am racing?

 

The advent of a $40-$50K SM buy-in makes a compelling argument to join the ranks of SRF.

[Chris Ashcraft]

This was my first year in SM got in 3 race weekend. I got lucky and got a great deal on a half finished car and was fortunate enough to work at a shop and have the time to finish it. But buying a 7000 motor was out of the question for the first year and probably likely the second. Being in my mid 30's i would love to have all of my friends get into SM but after doing it for a year where guys are buying 700 set pf tires every weekend and have 50,000 cars. I am like seriously at a club level...we need 50,000 cars to go out and be competitive and have fun. Yes i understand racing is expensive but man when i thought of getting into SM i truly thought a 20000 build with a pro engine would get it....WRONG.. 

[David L]

"IMO this is some of the reason car counts are down and the reason a lot of good and great drives left sm"

 

Perfect example the MARRS series always has more SSM cars than SM. And next year there will be more leaving SM and moving to SSM.

[Bench Racer]

Random thoughts:

 

 

The advent of a $40-$50K SM buy-in makes a compelling argument to join the ranks of SRF.

Ah, maybe we should learn something fast from the FV and SRF classes. Imagine the cost per car, had these FV and SRF class cars inflated like the Spec Miata has.

[svvs]

If SRF's had a closed top I'd really consider racing them.

 

I'm still waiting to see how SM5 shakes out.  So far looking positive.

[LarryKing]

I think I just heard an audible "YES!!!" coming from the direction of ChumpCar's office.

[Tom Sager]

Random thoughts:

 

When you buy a $40K SM do you tell your spouse how much you spent? I imagine this conversation:

She: "Honey did you buy a $40,000 Miata?"

He: "YEAH!"

She: "You idiot. I'm going shopping."

Good point.  Many of us are much better off buying the $15K car and then nickel and dimeing our way to $40K.  It's harder for your spouse to know exactly how much has been been spent when you do it gradually.  

[DrDomm]

No one responded to my reply to Mike C's comment that these high prices were "worth" it.  I'm sure they're "worth it" to someone who builds SMs for other people. 

 

I'll rephrase the question.  Could someone's "garage-build", with a "pro motor", compete with a car built by a top SM shop?  Also, could someone rebuild a Miata motor to SM rules, and be close to the pro builders who have experience?

 

If so, wouldn't the cost be well under $40K?  Under $30K?  Even lower?

 

To me, if you can buy a used pro-build for $20K or build your own for that price, then the rules and spirit of this class are fine...as long as those cars are "competitive". 

 

Said another way, if the 2-time National Champion could build his own car for under $20K...labor not included...do it himself, no matter how long it takes, then I'm content with the way things are.  It's a competition.  You either figure it out yourself, or pay someone who knows.

[Tom Sager]

I understand that this is a part of racing ( R&D) and with R&D comes $. But IMO it also can and will hurt this class. The reason I say this is, because if everyone could afford a Ferrari there would be tons of them on the road. But they can't so they drive a Camry and some can't afford a Camry so they take the bus. My point is,we have 30k to 40k cars out there and for someone starting out see's this and thinks there is no way in hell I can afford that so it keeps them out of the sport (our class). Nobody gets into racing and says I'm fine with a 6-10k car and fine with being in the top 20 to 15 positions. They get into racing for the excitement and competition and the hope of one day being on the podium. But they never will because they can't afford a competitive car less then 20 to 25k.

That's one of the reasons I got into this class was the competition and the price of the class. When I started a well tuned stock motor can get you in the top 5 and top 3. Now a 115hp is a joke and your lucky to get into the top 15 with it maybe top 10 if your a good driver. I just wish there was some way to keep the prices from getting out of control so we can get some new drivers to join in and get the car counts back up we're they used to be.

IMO this is some of the reason car counts are down and the reason a lot of good and great drives left sm.



Just thinking out loud,not trying to get anyone upset !

As for SCCA, there have been a number of popular classes that withered and often due to rising costs.  FF was once a very popular class and may have been SCCA's largest class at one point (early '80's?).  The cars were not overly expensive, easy to work on and the competition was fierce.  Engine builders responded to the demands for every last ounce of HP from the frontrunners and the engines got a lot more expensive and needed refreshes more often.  The same engine builders began marketing special parts like carburetors the flowed just a little better and had special jetting and internals. Anything that spun was massaged and newer, faster and more expensive chassis were developed.  This was the race that everyone who didn't drive a FF wanted to watch every weekend. The height of popularity was also the beginning of the decline.  Front runners that could afford it always had the good stuff but many that couldn't afford to keep up left over time.   A lot of classes have followed a similar cycle.  Competition breeds innovation which isn't cheap and the newest toys are usually the best ones.  

[Caveman-kwebb99]

No one responded to my reply to Mike C's comment that these high prices were "worth" it.  I'm sure they're "worth it" to someone who builds SMs for other people. 

 

I'll rephrase the question.  Could someone's "garage-build", with a "pro motor", compete with a car built by a top SM shop?  Also, could someone rebuild a Miata motor to SM rules, and be close to the pro builders who have experience?

 

IMO yes a garage built car could compete, if you knew all the little secrets to making these cars go fast, there is alot more to it then just bolting on parts, that is about 90% of it, its the last 10% that is costly and take time and energy to test and try all the things that a pro car builder is doing on 8 hours a day basis.

 

Its kinda like this, How many 25 year old young men could work a full time job 8-10 hours a day and come home and practice tennis a bit at the local tennis court and ever hope to compete with Raphael Nadal in a tennis match...  There are probably some young guys out there whgo have the tallent but if they dont have the time and resources its impossible.  

 

Ask yourself, how many parts does Jim have to play with for testing purposes and then just sell off if they provided no improvment?

 

How much would it cost you to either buy your own dyno or pay by the hour to test enough and tune enough to get there?

 

How many years has guys like Jim, Ademir, DDG, Collins, Wheeler etc... been at it developing, developing, and developing more in these cars?

 

How much time do you have available and how much knowledge do you have to start with?

 

How many years do you have to devote to getting that garage build the last 10% to cross the finishline to absolute monster build?

 

All of those things are why a pro build is worth 35k+++++!!!!!!

 

I for one am inmy mid 40's, maybe if I had started 10 years ago or more I could do it, at this point the sun will fully set onmy racing aspirations before I could ever get there on my own!

[Todd Lamb]

You can build a car for $20k with a pro motor if you did it all yourself and didn't need a fancy paint job, and I think you could be at the front of the field if you built it right. However, you aren't going to start with all new parts and you'll need to replace parts as they wear throughout the season. So factor in maintenance for that first year. THAT's where the $30k price tags are coming from.

 

Also, you can get by on a set of budget gauges. But do you want a budget fire bottle, or would you be smart to spend more $ on a supression system? Do you want a data system and camera? Do you want a center net and a halo seat (hint: YES you do!)? This is where the $40k price tags are coming from.

 

Anything over $40k is simply supply and demand pricing, and you're not getting anything extra for that.

[James York]

No one responded to my reply to Mike C's comment that these high prices were "worth" it.  I'm sure they're "worth it" to someone who builds SMs for other people. 

 

I'll rephrase the question.  Could someone's "garage-build", with a "pro motor", compete with a car built by a top SM shop?  Also, could someone rebuild a Miata motor to SM rules, and be close to the pro builders who have experience?

 

If so, wouldn't the cost be well under $40K?  Under $30K?  Even lower?

 

To me, if you can buy a used pro-build for $20K or build your own for that price, then the rules and spirit of this class are fine...as long as those cars are "competitive". 

 

Said another way, if the 2-time National Champion could build his own car for under $20K...labor not included...do it himself, no matter how long it takes, then I'm content with the way things are.  It's a competition.  You either figure it out yourself, or pay someone who knows.

Worth is determined by a buyer.  If anyone buys an SM for 40K (or more), then it was worth it.  Maybe not to you or me, but the market sets prices.

 

Do I think you could get a bare bones front runner for 25K.  Yes, but it won't be "new", fancy nor look like Mazda just rolled it off the assembly line, but it will get the job done.