92 replies to this topic

[RussMcB]

As someone mentioned before, the cost to do a majors race has already priced some of us out.  It's understandable the majors program strives to be exceptional events for our top competitors, but also disappointing I can't join in when they come to town.

 

Actually, I could do a majors race, but I'd need to sacrifice 2-3 regional races to do it, and I'm already going to far fewer races than I'd like.

 

Besides the cost, the hassle factor of racing is growing each year and seems to be always near the tipping point, where it's just not worth it.  I'm pretty sure if I was randomly asked to do invasive work at the track (without reasonable suspicion of cheating), it would be my last SCCA race. 

 

PS.  I really like the remote mounted ECU idea!  :-)

[Jamz14]

Dr dom,

Do you know what the penalty for refusing any tech request is now?

[Jim Drago]

If I understand the SCCA protest process correctly, if I thought someone's head was non-compliant I'd have to put up a bond that would cover the cost of them removing and installing it (plus any fee to determine compliance).  If it's compliant, I lose that bond and part of it goes to the competitor to cover the cost of their trouble.  Is that right?  If so, then have the same policy for random invasive techs.  Apply your compliance fee toward that.

Domm
If you are not protested by a competitor to be torn down, but told to do so by tech, you have EVERY right to establish a bond and be compensated a fair amount to do so. This exact thing happened to me after winning the Sprints in 2009. I was the ONLY one who had to remove a head. I established a bond before doing so, it was like $680 or something like that. I really didn't care about the money but felt the top three should be tested, not just the winner as they had in years passed. Had all three come apart, I would not have asked, but you certainly have the right.

As for refusing tech. IMO, refusing tech should come with a mandatory 6 month suspension. I think everyone is worrying more about a 1:1,000,000 scenario here. I can't EVER see a car outside the top five having a head removed less a protest from a competitor.

[James York]

I really wish we could remote mount the ECU in the 99s. I'm getting too old and fat to crawl upside down in the footwell to pull that thing. 

 

I laughed trying to picture you doing this.....  I am so glad I haven't had to pull mine since the 2010 Runoffs.

[James York]

I agreed with all of your posts up to this point.  I do not know how to take off the head, and rebuild it.  So disqualifying me for refusing to do it, without any suspicion, is nonsense.  Paying another team to do it is a waste of my money, that could go for much more important things.  If SCCA  (or someone else knowledgeable) volunteers to do it, then fine...have at it.  I would be pissed if I tow for 2 days, finish 20th or worse, and get disqualified for refusing to remove the head.  This was one of the reasons I heard at Regionals that would deter guys from doing Nationals.  Just because I can't tear down a motor doesn't mean I don't care about my results.  With all due respect, that was one of the stupidest things I've seen posted on this forum.

 

If I understand the SCCA protest process correctly, if I thought someone's head was non-compliant I'd have to put up a bond that would cover the cost of them removing and installing it (plus any fee to determine compliance).  If it's compliant, I lose that bond and part of it goes to the competitor to cover the cost of their trouble.  Is that right?  If so, then have the same policy for random invasive techs.  Apply your compliance fee toward that.

 

If the front runners are sick of the 40+ car fields, then the above suggestion is part of your answer.

You are worrying too much.  I have never seen invasive tech required short of a protest at any race other than the Runoffs, Sprints and maybe ARRC.  

 

At most races, it is the 15-20 minute time max on items that anyone (or any handy friend) can perform easily.  I just think we need more of this and for more cars.  Some of the best drivers in a straight line are in the middle of the pack.....

 

For example at a Majors I would expect:

 

All cars to be weighed at some point

All cars RP to be checked at some point

50% of the field to have its fuel check at some point

50% of the field to undergo some random non-invasive check (insert your favorite list here)

 

Plus the more rigorous checks of the podium.

[MPR22]

I laughed trying to picture you doing this.....  I am so glad I haven't had to pull mine since the 2010 Runoffs.

It is a three person job, once I go in, I need two people, one on each leg to pull the wedged human being out.  Its like pulling a barbed hook out of skin, ugly and painful. 

[DrDomm]

You are worrying too much.  I have never seen invasive tech required short of a protest at any race other than the Runoffs, Sprints and maybe ARRC.  

 

Yes, I'm worrying too much.  But then people post things like what I was replying to, and it worries me.

 

I'm all for lots of non-invasive tech...it makes me feel important. 

 

But I don't think ECU removal is non-invasive.  I've never taken one out, but I did get in upside down to adjust the brake pedal position once.  I thought I was gonna die in there.

[Jim Drago]

But I don't think ECU removal is non-invasive.  I've never taken one out, but I did get in upside down to adjust the brake pedal position once.  I thought I was gonna die in there.

That's when you find Meathead,Fowler or DAve and tell them you don't know what the heck you are doing and can you take it out for me. None of them will do it, but all ( myself included) will send a much younger and flexible employee to get it for you

[Caveman-kwebb99]

That's when you find Meathead,Fowler or DAve and tell them you don't know what the heck you are doing and can you take it out for me. None of them will do it, but all ( myself included) will send a much younger and flexible employee to get it for you

AKA York lol

[davew]

Computers can be removed from the car ?????? I'LL ask Brian how to do that.

 

As someone mentioned before, the cost to do a majors race has already priced some of us out.  It's understandable the majors program strives to be exceptional events for our top competitors, but also disappointing I can't join in when they come to town.

 

Actually, I could do a majors race, but I'd need to sacrifice 2-3 regional races to do it, and I'm already going to far fewer races than I'd like.

 

 

 

I don't get this argument. Other than a slight increase in entry fee, it costs nothing more to do a Major than a Regional event. Tires cost the same. As do gas, travel, hotel and everything else.

 

The National program got deluted with too many events. The highest quality Nationals (Sebring, Sprints, VIR etc) became the Majors program. Majors are now open to all fully licensed competitors. No more regional only licenses. Now we need to bring the highest quality event staff and organization to the Majors program.

 

With a 70 car field (Sebring) you are never going to get every car inspected. But at more normal events, everybody should get a non invasive look over. Impound all with hoods and trunks open is a great idea. How about if one or two "experts" (Fowler, Meathead, Drago) where made non-official tech inspector. Have them walk around and look at all the cars, to point out performance, safety or non-compliance issues. You can come look at their cars and maybe learn something. Believe me, the gray areas are not visible to the naked eye.

 

NON_INVASIVE

Within time constraints, weigh as many cars as possible during the weekend.

Random fuel tests

Brake rotor diameter (I saw a 99 with 1.6 brakes at a recent race)

sway bar thickness.

Restrictor plates. Color check during impound all. Measure top runners and at least 1 random

All tech crews have a whistler and bore-stroke measuring tools. Use them at least a couple cars every weekend. The tech guys really do want to get their hands dirty.

Safety check: belt date, belt mounting, seat mounting, brake lights, master switch, etc.

I hate the sticker police, but some cars really need some work.

Check working reverse

Check working 5th gear

track width/wheel spacers

 

SLIGHTLY- INVASIVE

Remove valve cover, visually inspect cam and measure total lift.

Remove starter, check flywheel

Gear ratio checks. Actually non-invasive, but time consuming

Remove downpipe/exhaust to inspect for porting

 

Tech needs to schedule better. Don't do a long tech after SM when STL is 2 groups later. If SM is last group. Do your bigger inspections earlier in the weekend so people can leave. Be reasonable, a broken zip tie on the window net should not result in a $25 fine and a notation in the logbook.

 

Just my 2 cents

Dave

[Michael Novak]

Computers can be removed from the car ?????? I'LL ask Brian how to do that.

 

 

I don't get this argument. Other than a slight increase in entry fee, it costs nothing more to do a Major than a Regional event. Tires cost the same. As do gas, travel, hotel and everything else.

 

The National program got deluted with too many events. The highest quality Nationals (Sebring, Sprints, VIR etc) became the Majors program. Majors are now open to all fully licensed competitors. No more regional only licenses. Now we need to bring the highest quality event staff and organization to the Majors program.

 

With a 70 car field (Sebring) you are never going to get every car inspected. But at more normal events, everybody should get a non invasive look over. Impound all with hoods and trunks open is a great idea. How about if one or two "experts" (Fowler, Meathead, Drago) where made non-official tech inspector. Have them walk around and look at all the cars, to point out performance, safety or non-compliance issues. You can come look at their cars and maybe learn something. Believe me, the gray areas are not visible to the naked eye.

 

NON_INVASIVE

Within time constraints, weigh as many cars as possible during the weekend.

Random fuel tests

Brake rotor diameter (I saw a 99 with 1.6 brakes at a recent race)

sway bar thickness.

Restrictor plates. Color check during impound all. Measure top runners and at least 1 random

All tech crews have a whistler and bore-stroke measuring tools. Use them at least a couple cars every weekend. The tech guys really do want to get their hands dirty.

Safety check: belt date, belt mounting, seat mounting, brake lights, master switch, etc.

I hate the sticker police, but some cars really need some work.

Check working reverse

Check working 5th gear

track width/wheel spacers

 

SLIGHTLY- INVASIVE

Remove valve cover, visually inspect cam and measure total lift.

Remove starter, check flywheel

Gear ratio checks. Actually non-invasive, but time consuming

Remove downpipe/exhaust to inspect for porting

 

Tech needs to schedule better. Don't do a long tech after SM when STL is 2 groups later. If SM is last group. Do your bigger inspections earlier in the weekend so people can leave. Be reasonable, a broken zip tie on the window net should not result in a $25 fine and a notation in the logbook.

 

Just my 2 cents

Dave

ALL the same tires  

[Tom Sager]

It is a three person job, once I go in, I need two people, one on each leg to pull the wedged human being out.  Its like pulling a barbed hook out of skin, ugly and painful. 

My problem is that once I get down under there I can't see what I'm doing.  I need special reading glasses built for the exact distance from my nose to the ECU, glasses that will stay on my head while twisting around that also incorporate a miner's style light.  

[DrDomm]

One more thing I want to say about mid-pack tech (because I can't stop)...

 

When the top cars at the Runoffs get torn down and found to be compliant, I don't really worry if the cars running with me 2-4 seconds off the pace are compliant to a "T".

 

I don't mean that to condone cheating, but I have more important priorities...like figuring out why I'm that far off the pace.

 

One more thing about Majors compliance...

 

I fear that if compliance is only a focus at Majors, it will appear that it isn't a concern at non-Majors.  I'm not sure that's a great message.

[Rob Burgoon]

Zip ties?  On a window net?  Oy.

[KW78]

Well if I were SM king for a day.... 

 

I feel this issue should be worked from 3 (at least) angles.  Maybe I should just say several....

 

• In general, The front runners have to keep the mid packers (I include myself in that group) improving their performance enough to combat the feel that anyone faster than them "has to be cheating".  This website, data webinars, and general sharing does a pretty good job and helps this particular class of club racers...
• We need to tech our own class.  We are the miata experts there that day.  SCCA rules should be changed to facilitate that.  I have said here before, a solo2 style of tech of the top X cars where all competitors, especially slower ones, are welcome in tech to chat, ask questions, see the open hoods with one side wheels off. 
• SCCA has to drop the rule that a protest has to be filed before the race.  That constraint single handedly defeats the comaradery of club racing and eliminates teching ourselves.
• Jamz is spot on that tech needs to get clever.  The tech people do have a role.  If we have an open hood tech, we can see the simple stuff that tech does now.  Tech guys agenda could get a little more complex at this point. 

 

Rules for the class could be evolved a little also.  If common "cheats" can not be tech'd, then within reason, make them legal! For example: If you can't catch bent suspension parts, then make them legal.  If you are competing against a guy with 0.4 degrees more camber and our current system can't stop that, then write the rule that welcomes everyone to get the camber they want.  The spec tire will soon define the sweet spot and everyone can race there.

 

I think our class has a great handle on the mechanical aspect of the drivetrain.  The batch of parts are well defined, and with SCCA using a cam doctor, the motors have gotten pretty close.

 

The last black majic area is the engine management.  First, I think ECM should be open or a few spec low cost alternates.  Give the class a PNP Megasquirt, and with the info sharing here soon everyone could run the optimized timing curve and fuel curve, with less than a set of new tires spent.  Issue resolved without tech and $250 bonds to catch $1100 modified stock ECU's.  A side benefit of this is it lets the class address a reliability problem that is quickly biting us in the a$$, old wiring harnessess. 

 

BUT, currently ECM is not free.  It would be very easy to make a signal generator to test these computers from under the hood.   Unplug the CAS from the car and into a "jimstim", turn the key on, fuel pump off, and spin a knob from 4000 to 7500 and see where the rev limit stops firing the spark plug.  On a 99 it would be the crank sensor input.  Max of 4 input variations I believe would get the whole class.   It would literally be a 5 minute non invasive ecm check.  If there is an additional SM tech fee, make these first.  Litterally $600 would get every region one I would think.

 

Another thing tech should have is two handheld laser tachometers.  They are $15-$20 on amazon.  if you have a car up on  jack stands already, idle the motor and put it in gear.  One dot on the balancer, one dot on the driveshaft.  Idling in 1st gear gives you the ratio, 2nd gear, etc.  For the safety conscience put the car on rear jack stands with tires off and rotors tight with 2 lugnuts.    BTW, checking the rear diff ratio just takes another dot on a CV shaft.  Again, the second or third time you do this method, it is a 5 or 10 minute, non invasive check.  

 

Tying all this back to competing at the majors - they write their own sup regs anyways, they could make an enhanced smarter tech part of the appeal of the "higher quality" event for the SM crowd specifically - I presume the largest class participating. 

 

 

My .02!

 

Kyle

 

 

 

[dstevens]

That's when you find Meathead,Fowler or DAve and tell them you don't know what the heck you are doing and can you take it out for me. None of them will do it, but all ( myself included) will send a much younger and flexible employee to get it for you

I'd pay good money to see Drago, Collins, Fowler or Wheeler wrangle down into the passenger side to retrieve an ECU...

[Jim Drago]

I'd pay good money to see Drago, Collins, Fowler or Wheeler wrangle down into the passenger side to retrieve an ECU...

you would pay even more to see us wrangle down under drivers side and up under dash along side of the steering column to get the 99 The 1.6 is a breeze compared to the 99

[davew]

Those passenger side ECU's are easy. Even I can get those out. It's those dam 99+ with drivers side ecus that cause the back aches.

 

I'd pay good money to see Drago, Collins, Fowler or Wheeler wrangle down into the passenger side to retrieve an ECU...

 

How much, I have to buy a new trailer axle and could use your help !!!!!

 

Dave

[Bench Racer]

I'd pay good money to see Drago, Collins, Fowler or Wheeler wrangle down into the passenger side to retrieve an ECU...

You'd loose on a Fowler bet if it was under the driver side dash.

[Parity]

 The 1.6 is a breeze compared to the 99

Well there you have it folks. He admits the parity problem is real.