92 replies to this topic

[Bench Racer]

This stacked site correct poll requires one further selection for appropriate fee $0.0.

 

$45.00 x 4 events = 1 new tire with some change left over.

[MPR22]

Jim,

What does the compliance fee get me? SCCA tool purchase, hiring a mechanic that tears cars apart for us, 3 inspectors to watch us tear down our cars?

I assumed  35 SM participants for an average, don't know the real average.

25 x 35= $875 X 25 majors = $21,875
35 x 35= $1,225 = $30,625
45 x 35= $1,575 = $39,375

Not saying an extra 25-45 bucks is going to break any of us but it all adds up. We are already paying extra $100 (I think) to race Majors vs regional. Does that extra hundred pay for champaign, flags for victor laps...... When does it end? I get paid by the hour, if I attend a Major it costs me 2 extra days of work.. I have to travel on Wednesday test on Thursday,you get the picture. If I race regional, I show up on Friday night or Saturday morning depending on the tow. Pull the car out , go warm up, qualify and race all in the same day.
Which is more fun? Racing or traveling. Longest regional tow 5.5 hours. Shortest Marjors tow 5.5 hours. Longest majors tow 17.5 hours.

I like the idea of racing against guys outside my division, not sure i am willing to continue to pay for the privilege. I like the idea of compliance checks, espically random ones through out the field, just not sure it should cost an extra $39,375 to achieve.

Like I asked in the beginning, what does my fee get me?

[pat slattery]

$10.00 should be a good number, what happened to all the tools that were purchased when we did have the fee?

[Mike Collins]

$25.00 per car will get you $1000 at a 40 car event.  that is just about enough to bring in an expert for the weekend if you factor in some residual funds from the smaller events.

[Brian Ghidinelli]

Majors cost $135/car.

[Johnny D]

Majors cost $135/car.

 

Totally, because lets face it, you only paid for "THE MAJORS" basic package.

J~

[FTodaro]

We have been focused on the cost, it’s a factor.  Another consideration is some consistency. Some regions do a better job than others. I think overall i think the compliance checks for the Top 3 is decent. We all want more tech till it’s us who have to pull shocks off and get into our cars.

 

We have beat this subject before the things i have seen that i like

 

Random checks on Grid for restrictor plate compliance

 

Random checks past top 3 for anything

Top 5 wt, plate, gearing, fuel, alternator, bore, Dyno

 

Things i do not like

Invasive tech before the race. I would rather see parts marked and checked after. I have had to remove suspension parts before the race and totally F"ed up my setup.

 

So in general I think more random checks beyond the top 3 is where we can get the best bang for the buck

[Bench Racer]

 

So in general I think more random checks beyond the top 3 is where we can get the best bang for the buck

 

Really?

As folks talk, we seem to have good engine rules.

ECU rules???

When is the last time a transmission or differential was checked?

Have Fun

David

[Jim Drago]

Really?
As folks talk, we seem to have good engine rules.
ECU rules???
When is the last time a transmission or differential was checked?
Have Fun
David

Not sure on others.. Personally have had Trans checked this year and 09 at runoffs. Diff pulled out and checked at 08 runoffs.. Trans and Rear ratio checked at Atlanta race in March.

[Charlie Hayes]

I'm totally willing for regular casual compliance tests on regular weekends. I have no problem pulling heads, cams, intakes, exhaust, shocks, etc but I would expect most to be at the big week. It does make a lot of people happy and warm inside but it is a hassle to others.

Fuel
Plates
Weight
Track width
Brake rotors (od and min thick)
Whistler
Final drive
Shocks
Visual check on anything with the car
Wheel weights


Are all totally cool and easy to check!

[DrDomm]

I want everyone to play by the rules, and totally support as much non-invasive tech as possible for anyone.  But if I'm 3-4 sec/lap off the pace (as I was many places last year) and get picked randomly to remove a shock, take out the diff, or something else, I'll stop doing Majors.  I think many others will also.  I love the idea of the Majors, and coming to the big events...but the extra registration cost, travel, added tire budget is about the limit I'm willing to endure for something I do for fun.  So I don't support random invasive tech outside the top finishers or qualifiers.  If there's an "anomolous" car in the mid-pack, then subject that car to the same tech as the front-runners.

 

This is from someone who doesn't have a large/experienced team providing trackside support.  And I have no problem admitting that everytime I fix something on my car, it's a learning process.  You don't want me learning in impound.  If the goal is to thin out the field of us "fillers" or prevent the local guys from dabbling in their Major, this might work.  I hope that isn't the intent.

[Danny Steyn]

I want everyone to play by the rules, and totally support as much non-invasive tech as possible for anyone.  But if I'm 3-4 sec/lap off the pace (as I was many places last year) and get picked randomly to remove a shock, take out the diff, or something else, I'll stop doing Majors.  I think many others will also.  I love the idea of the Majors, and coming to the big events...but the extra registration cost, travel, added tire budget is about the limit I'm willing to endure for something I do for fun.  So I don't support random invasive tech outside the top finishers or qualifiers.  If there's an "anomolous" car in the mid-pack, then subject that car to the same tech as the front-runners.

 

This is from someone who doesn't have a large/experienced team providing trackside support.  And I have no problem admitting that everytime I fix something on my car, it's a learning process.  You don't want me learning in impound.  If the goal is to thin out the field of us "fillers" or prevent the local guys from dabbling in their Major, this might work.  I hope that isn't the intent.

 

Dom - thanks for sharing this viewpoint with us, sometimes we lose sight of some of the basics.

 

On a personal note, the only time that I have experienced "anomolous" mid pack cars was when I have started at the back or gone off the track and rejoined behind. So what I am saying is that the front guys will seldom experience an out of ordinary car, unless the above situation happens, so policing the mid pack cars would fall on the shoulders of the mid pack drivers. Any thoughts on this?

[luckymiata76]

We are already paying $60 in fees to run a Major's Race. We don't need more fees. We don't need more administrative costs. We're just amateurs for heaven's sake.

 

Jeff L

[Bench Racer]

Not sure on others.. Personally have had Trans checked this year and 09 at runoffs. Diff pulled out and checked at 08 runoffs.. Trans and Rear ratio checked at Atlanta race in March.

This is not a pick on Jim.

There's more to the transmission and differential than the ratios.    Has any of your/team/anyone else transmissions or differentials been opened for a look-see inside?

 

Pick a place to play, engine, ECU, flywheel, disc, pressure plate, transmission, driveshaft, differential, axles, rotors, wheels, tires.

[Johnny D]

Too bad the fee couldn't be prorated, because I think everyone would say the winner should be checked and the guy that finishes last shouldn't.

But the threat should always be there to keep everyone honest.

J~

[Sean - MiataCage]

The protest process is still in full effect and should be used for things that are "invasive".  I would just like to see some consistent basic non-invasive tech that should not cost us any additional money outside of the Major's entry fees.

 

Anyone know what tech was performed at NOLA?

[Ron Alan]

No skin in the game but just thoughts. Sean and Charlie's list are right on and non-invasive for the most part. I think Domms concerns are unfounded...invasive tech for any other than the top 5 is not the norm.

If you are good enough to qualify in the top 10 at any given Major...you should be prepared to have your stuff looked at closely. Given the talent this is probably the very outside a car could come back to win in a race...even with help!

What about some form of voluntary tech for SM? Bring your car over during down time and things that can be sealed get done pre qual? Maybe not many things but better than nothing. Any whistler or stroke and bore tools that are used should have a pre determined witness(mechanic very familiar with these items)to watch. There should be a predetermined error factor(or none)allowed and in writing.

Bottom line is tech makes all those who are playing by the rules feel its worth all the effort. Regardless whether you finish in the top 10, mid pack or bringing up the rear...compliance and the threat of has to be there.

[DrDomm]

Dom - thanks for sharing this viewpoint with us, sometimes we lose sight of some of the basics.

 

On a personal note, the only time that I have experienced "anomolous" mid pack cars was when I have started at the back or gone off the track and rejoined behind. So what I am saying is that the front guys will seldom experience an out of ordinary car, unless the above situation happens, so policing the mid pack cars would fall on the shoulders of the mid pack drivers. Any thoughts on this?

 

I think those of us mid-pack and back would bring a car that seemed out of the ordinary to someone else's attention...either to another more experienced competitor or steward...probably after discussing with the driver.  If I'm beat by a non-compliant car for 30th place, I really don't care.  If I pull in 30th, I want to get that car on the trailer and tell stories about how I should've been 20th.  Admittedly, in the top half of the field I guess I'd take it more seriously too.  Again, I'm all for plates and weights and whatever is easy to do and important.

 

...I think Domms concerns are unfounded...invasive tech for any other than the top 5 is not the norm.

If you are good enough to qualify in the top 10 at any given Major...you should be prepared to have your stuff looked at closely. Given the talent this is probably the very outside a car could come back to win in a race...even with help!

What about some form of voluntary tech for SM? Bring your car over during down time and things that can be sealed get done pre qual? Maybe not many things but better than nothing. Any whistler or stroke and bore tools that are used should have a pre determined witness(mechanic very familiar with these items)to watch. There should be a predetermined error factor(or none)allowed and in writing.

Bottom line is tech makes all those who are playing by the rules feel its worth all the effort. Regardless whether you finish in the top 10, mid pack or bringing up the rear...compliance and the threat of has to be there.

 

I hope my concerns are unfounded.  But it sounds like people are suggesting more invasive tech, and to extend it to a "random" car.  If I finish a Major in the top 10, I'll be so psyched I'll rip the whole thing apart (and leave it).  But if I finish 30th, and see that the 29th place car gets picked randomly to take something apart...I'll think twice about the next Major.  I'll gladly pull up onto the scales, open my hood, take of my plate, take off my wheels, give a fuel sample, or whatever I can get done in 15 minutes.  That I support.

[Jim Drago]

Domm
Not sure what others are thinking/saying... My thoughts on randoms hS always been non invasive, but three should be checked. Weights, plate.. Maybe bore/stroke and whistler on rare occasions

Ddw
Not sure on internal checks of others.. All podium in 09 and top 6 in 08. Blake drove my car that year.
No idea of other times or other people

[Cnj]

Somebody mentioned in Drago's Facebook post about this subject that the PCA Club Racing is testing electronic devices for tech compliance.  This is true.
 
I have been working with the PCA on creating a process to use AiM data loggers and then specialized data analysis tools to check for technical compliance. They debuted the system at Sebring last week and things went very well.  The officials and the racers were very happy after the very first weekend.
 
AiM Sports is also working with the CTCC (Canadian Touring Car Championship) where they also are using AiM data loggers for technical compliance. CTCC balances different makes and models of cars with RPM and Boost limits and with the data gathered and specialized data analysis tools, the officials can determine in just a couple of minutes any excessive levels.  Gearing is also checked. 
 
These were their current concerns, we are able to work with them on new processes when they decide they need to check other items.

Roger,

I am moderately familiar with your PCA efforts. I know there is enthusiasm about how this might improve compliance, reduce scrutineering manpower and significantly/dramatically reducing tear downs of the (likely) innocent - focusing on the (likely) guilty. I find it very intriguing. As I understand it they are using a couple of Solo DL's to set baselines and then randomly/selectively installing them in cars to evaluate performance to determine who to go after for invasive tech.

Could you list all the parameters that you believe could reasonably be tested for compliance on our SM's using the DL's - and what level of accuracy is viable.

CNJ