138 replies to this topic

[Waterboy]

Todd, any video from Ted's car? Looks like that is about where the poop hit the fan.

 

It's in a secure vault at Fort Lamb in Atlanta Georgia.  Only a very few are allowed admittance. 

[Todd Lamb]

Haha - Ted has his card - will have his video when we get to Summit this weekend. Got a great shot of Frank's wild ride as well as the pileup.

[Butch Kummer]

Granted this was almost ten years ago now, but I recall there were differing opinions on what happened then just as it did this past weekend. The prevalent story is the starter waved off the start (or threw a late green), but the bottom line is the front row did not accelerate as soon as many in the back thought they would. Whatever caused it, there were similar results:

http://www.dodgechar...?topic=42651.0

[Blake Thompson]

Granted this was almost ten years ago now, but I recall there were differing opinions on what happened then just as it did this past weekend. The prevalent story is the starter waved off the start (or threw a late green), but the bottom line is the front row did not accelerate as soon as many in the back thought they would. Whatever caused it, there were similar results:

http://www.dodgechar...?topic=42651.0

 

 

RA lends itself to this sort of mess.  And it's a LONG way around to call off a start.

[suck fumes]

I wouldn't want to get caught in a wreck in a vintage car. Lot more dangerous!

[Bench Racer]

RA lends itself to this sort of mess.  And it's a LONG way around to call off a start.

Unless the start is from a location the starter (with helpers) can view the entire field. Sort of like the starts at Mid Ohio on the back stretch for the Runoffs. Unless with no green the field leaves track at T5. 

It's all been said before.

[EPrill]

Very interesting read and as many have said, not the first time Road America has had start or restart controversy or sadly, a big wreck.

 

I've seen a number of restarts this year that are not anywhere near the letter of the law. The challenge is in enforcement. How do you determine, on the fly, who was at fault? Do we, as drivers, really want to put that decision in someone else's hands? What if they get it wrong? You can't give a stop/go penalty back. Ask Bill Auberlen...

 

Example - Road America, World Challenge GT, 2003

I was in the TV truck, communicating with race control. World Challenge restart procedures are very clear in 2004--you peek before the green, it's a jumped start. Field comes up for a restart with Mike Fitzgerald leading in a 3R Porsche, but Bill Auberlen in a factory M3 peeks as the cars pop into view to the starter. The green waves, and Bill gets a stop and go. Pretty clear-cut call. Johnny O'Connell is doing TV and immediately says "oh that's a bad call!" I later explain why it was the correct call at the time and that we need to think twice before saying stuff like that. Since that day, I'm not on Johnny's Christmas card list.

 

But back to the story--the information that was available at that time said Auberlen jumped the start. The start judges saw it and the TV cameras caught it, but this is all from the perspective of the tower looking at the cars after they've come up the hill. Upon review of the in-car from several cars well after the race, it appeared that maybe the car in front of the BMW accelerated hard and then lifted, causing Auberlen to swerve. Busted the wrong guy! After that, we used a radar gun, and then finally used a radar gun and put acceleration cones out about 100 yards before the start stand as an indication of when you can accelerate and when the green will come out. 

 

My point is, as World Challenge Chief Steward Pat DiNatale likes to say "If you might not like the decision I make, please don't put me in a position to make that decision" -- Pat doesn't actually rhyme, I'm paraphrasing.

 

So, do we as Club Racers want a steward penalizing us--potentially getting the call wrong? I sure don't, so I'd just rather we all played it by the book on the restarts. If we don't like the rule that we have to wait for the green, then let's write letters and get the rule changed. But until something changes, hitting the gas coming out of the last turn is against the rules, as is monkeying around behind the lead car and the pace car. Who in that situation is right or wrong? Who do you want to make that call? Is someone ready to be the sacrificial lamb (no pun intended) to test how far it can go before the stewards crack down on it?

 

Love Spec Miata racing. Some of the closest, most intense stuff around. Truly a shame what happened to all those cars at RA. My comments about the cars up front should not be taken as an indictment on them for what happened further back. I subscribe to the notion that one probably didn't have a lot to do with the other, but truly don't have enough info.

[davew]

Great points Eric. But is making no call better than making a wrong call?

 

Maybe if ANY call is made, the drivers will be more careful to do things correctly.

 

Dave

[Stix37867]

I've given myself a few days to cool down before posting and let more of the story come to light. While I concede there is no definitive cause of the crash, there were definitely many compounding sources that contributed to its severity. Whether it be the ridiculously slow pace of the pace car the entire weekend or the slower than normal pace of the lead cars, they all contributed.

 

As to who is at fault, here is where I disagree with many here, the officials, and the SCCA event newsletter highlighting the midpack's supposed mistake. I was second to the last car involved and was one of two or three that ended up writing the car off. I feel I had a pretty good vantage point as to those in front of me involved in the crash. I saw no one doing any anticipation or early accelerating. The reports and believes that we caused our own crash are completely false. We are the victims of the poor decisions of those in front of us whether that be 1st-5th or 6-20th.

 

I was extremely disappointed and upset to read the SCCA newsletter stating that we attempted to anticipate the green and caused our own crash. Whoever wrote that clearly had zero clue about what had happened. I am also disappointed in seeing the front blame us for ruining their race and claiming we were "racing for 1st from the back". Any one of us could have easily gotten seriously hurt as seen from all the videos and this incident should not be taken lightly.

 

From the few videos I have seen (Josh's, Joel Jens', and mine), it is clear to me that the pile up start well before the "midpack". Now I may define midpack differently than others so let me be clear; I feel the pack started banging bumpers well ahead of 15th. By the time that the accordion got back to us in 20-28th, it turned into a much larger speed differential and was no longer avoidable as we were all formed up ready for the start. No one can question if we were trying to anticipate the start by looking at were the crash happened. Any midpack driver knows that you can't go full throttle that early before the turn, especially at the 2-3 braking marker. None of the blame can be put onto us.

 

My point of this is not to push blame onto any one person or group of people but to show that we were not at fault. Just as Danny stated early in the conversation, I am also capable of admitting when I am wrong but we were clearly not in the wrong on this one.

 

Here is the video for everyone to watch. I had to cut it off quick as the language on the radio was rather graphic. If I did something wrong, please enlighten me.

 

http://youtu.be/bypp_CVnQ8s

 

[Jim Drago]

The challenge is in enforcement. How do you determine, on the fly, who was at fault? Do we, as drivers, really want to put that decision in someone else's hands? What if they get it wrong? You can't give a stop/go penalty back.

Here ya go.. This start was incorrectly given a three position penalty in 2010 Runoffs.

[scott sanda]

That is an interesting and horrible Video. Dave you were nothing but a helpless victim. Who was in the Trim Tex car?  Running the video slowly, he has front and heavy rear damage, but you cannot determine who was in front of him. I would love to see his video.

 

One aside, who was uselessly scrubbing his tires as you came around 13? The same driver was way out of place exiting 12. 

 

Butch, you are mis informed about the HSR crash. I was actually standing there watching, it was not a balk, it was a driver putting 2 into the grass at the start to "make a move", spinning, and taking out about 4 million in rolling stock as all the cars crested the hill at full throttle and hit.

 

As for jumped starts, there is a procedure, but it involves a Chief stewards action after the race, and an investigation, just so someone who was innocent but appeared guilty doesn't get his race ended with a black flag early.

[Bench Racer]

 

Now I may define midpack differently than others so let me be clear; I feel the pack started banging bumpers well ahead of 15th. By the time that the accordion got back to us in 20-28th, 

 

http://youtu.be/bypp_CVnQ8s

David, thank you for posting your video. I was not in the hunt, BUT watching the video the beginning of the crash (bent metal) happened between the Hawk sign over the track and entrance to T14, well beyond T13. EDIT: my bad. Oh for a drone with a camara. < That friends no one can escape from/BS their way out of.

If folks forward of David/Stix37867 loaded their videos, it would become quite interesting. Tracy???

[gblaser]

I usually try to avoid these things, but since I seem to be in the middle of it, so here goes.

 

First off, I thank Dave Wheeler and David Schroeder for their sane comments, and many thanks to Dave Wheeler for building a safe car.

 

The narcissism involved in openly breaking the restart procedure rules, which are ostensibly there to prevent incidents just like this one, and then claiming you have nothing to do with the crash is just astounding.  You guys need to look inward on this one and consider how your actions impacted a lot of other people.  Congrats on your finishing positions, I hope they feel as hollow as they should.

 

Scott, if you re-watch the video you'll see the field had to fan out at T12, the car in front of me goes left, I go right.  Upon further examination, this appears the be the time when the leaders first stopped following the pace car.  We had to fan out because the cars in front of us slowed unexpectedly.  After going off line in 12, I thought it was a good idea to scrub some dirt off of my tires before the restart.  I don't appreciate the implication that I'm unaware of my surroundings.

 

-Greg

[Johnny D]

FUBAR

I think alot of things could of been done by all and I hope we learn from it.

 

You went off on a warm up lap ??  Are you running an orange plate?

 

If you were split instead of schrubbing tires, would half the car been damaged because maybe only one line stopped ?

 

Have you got a mirror for looking inward?

 

Just my

J~

[James York]

I wasn't there and don't have a side in this but from the video's posted so far, someone f'ed up behind Drago and in front of David Schroeder.

 

Lamb's and Berry's in car cameras show very little change in pace from the cars it can catch in view.  Easily managed roll.

 

But someone behind them, in front of David, got caught with their head up their ass.

 

You can argue the legality of the restart technique utilized by Danny, but it is not anything that I have not seen myself many times.  I always expect the man in front to go early and pay attention as to when.

 

It is a shame about the damage, but it is a good thing no one was hurt.  Cars can be fixed or replaced.

 

EDIT:  Just watched Josh's video on YouTube.  Right close to him, maybe one to a few cars up must start the accordion.  You notice Josh is jockeying the throttle/brakes pretty hard.  You don't hear or see this from the front cars.  It is very easy to get caught out if someone is wide open, and the car in front suddenly brakes.  

[Tyson Schwiesow]

Thanks as well for the video David.  I'm directly in front of you in the black 92 car.  My Go Pro ran out of juice around lap 4 so unfortunately nothing to show. Can we come to a consensus on pace for the entire group, front to back? I'd be happy to take criticism regarding my position.  

[Danny Steyn]

Lots of interesting viewpoints, and I some very ugly video. Josh’s, Joels and Davids video are tough to watch.

 

Greg, I think your comment….. Upon further examination, this appears to be the time when the leaders first stopped following the pace car…….  is far off the mark. Watch Todd’s video and my video below, and you will see that it had very little to do with what happened further back.

 

I am traveling and I have been following the thread by phone I wanted to make sure I was able to use my PC to write this reply.

 

STARTS

 

The way we as a class start at Road America is completely against the rules. We are supposed to go at pace car speed in double file until we get the green, but we go WOT at the bottom of the hill the second the pace car pulls off track. We are at WOT at least 10-15 seconds before the green is waved. We have been doing it at Road American for years, everyone knows it, and it’s worked and I suspect that it has helped reduce the potential for turn 1 chaos. But it’s wrong according to the GCR. At most tracks starting this way will get a wave off for sure, but not with Chicago Region SCCA at Road America.

 

RESTARTS

 

Restarts at Road America in the past have been generally decent affairs and I have been in many. The Race leader has always gone the instant the pace car has pulled off, and it has been a mad dash to T1. However this year was not a good restart. The slow speed by the front runners, and that includes me, might well have been a contributing factor in the chaos at T14.

 

I am NOT absolving myself from that responsibility.

 

During the FCY laps the pace car was under 35mph several times, but it was steady at 40mph around the carousel, and leading down to Canada Corner. When I exited Canada Corner and I saw the cars behind me fall back I slowed to 34 mph and held it at 33-36 mph all the way to T14 (which incidentally was a very similar speed that the we all ran up to T14 at the start of the race. (35-39mph)

 

However, if drivers had stayed on the tail of the car in front, including mine, then I would have maintained the 40mph behind the pace car. We all know what it looks like when drivers line up in single file on the bumper of the driver in front of them ready for the restart as we have all been involved in many restarts. But this was not one of these occasions.

 

But apart from what I and the other front runners did at the front of the pack, I suspect that something else went on behind us and I would love to see the video from the cars at or in front of the chaos, as I suspect we might learn more from this.

 

 

RACE RESULTS

 

Unfortunately the drama of the restart has clouded the spectacle of the June Sprints yet again. Congrats to Todd Lamb in the feature race. He drove one hell of a race, and he made the move to win the race while I still had my head up my lame ass. I was radio’d about the crash, but I did not defend going into T5 and Lamb made the intelligent pass, and then it went FCY and they waved the checker. I have no one else to blame except myself

 

Reading Jim’s summary above, I am in awe of East Street Racing’s impeccable June Sprints resume for. Congrats. We (OPM/ROSSINI) have won it once (in the rain, 2010) and we came very close the last two years, but a miss is as good as a mile.

 

Also congrats to Jim, Craig Berry, Erik Stearns, Justin Elder, Woytek Burdzy and all the other drivers that I was racing with all weekend. The racing was fast, clean and respectful.

 

HOWEVER THE CARNAGE AT T14 HAS TO BE AVOIDED AT ALL COSTS AND WE AS DRIVERS ALL HAVE TO LOOK AT WHAT WE CAN DO TO AVOID THIS HAPPENING IN THE FUTURE. OTHERWISE THE NUMBERS WILL DWINDLE.

[Zauskycop]

No video here...I shut off the power before saving session data...and that corrupts the file. Sorry. Josh bilicki's video is on YouTube. I'm starting to gather some ideas though.

[Danny Steyn]

PS - to those drivers that I offended with my "lame-ass" comment, I do apologize. Not my best moment. Sorry

[gblaser]

Danny, it is quite simple.  If you had kept with the pace car as the GCR specifies, the stackups would not have happened or at least would not have been so severe, and the crash would not have taken place.  If this is in fact the way starts have been conducted in major races, then I think this is a much bigger problem and I'm sorry that you had to be the one at the lead when this happened, especially since by all accounts you are a very nice guy.  I imagine that the tone of this thread would be much different if any number of less popular drivers had been leading the field back to green.

 

I do think it is unfair of you to lump the whole class of hundreds of drivers in with the maybe 10 who have been pulling these shenanigans.  I just reviewed the restart from last fall's regional at RA and the leader followed the rule (not sure who it was), and there was no drama.  The leader(s) at the sprints, and possibly the safety car driver made decisions that led to this, everyone else's errors were solely in reaction time.

 

I'm sorry to be so rude about this, but I can't sit quiet while the forum tries convince itself that everything is okay and that it's just other peoples money so it's not a big deal.