138 replies to this topic

[Ron Alan]

FUBAR

I think alot of things could of been done by all and I hope we learn from it.

 

You went off on a warm up lap ??  Are you running an orange plate?

 

If you were split instead of schrubbing tires, would half the car been damaged because maybe only one line stopped ?

 

Have you got a mirror for looking inward?

 

Just my

J~

What thread are you reading?? You should keep your money!

 

I usually try to avoid these things, but since I seem to be in the middle of it, so here goes.

 

First off, I thank Dave Wheeler and David Schroeder for their sane comments, and many thanks to Dave Wheeler for building a safe car.

 

The narcissism involved in openly breaking the restart procedure rules, which are ostensibly there to prevent incidents just like this one, and then claiming you have nothing to do with the crash is just astounding.  You guys need to look inward on this one and consider how your actions impacted a lot of other people.  Congrats on your finishing positions, I hope they feel as hollow as they should.

 

Scott, if you re-watch the video you'll see the field had to fan out at T12, the car in front of me goes left, I go right.  Upon further examination, this appears the be the time when the leaders first stopped following the pace car.  We had to fan out because the cars in front of us slowed unexpectedly.  After going off line in 12, I thought it was a good idea to scrub some dirt off of my tires before the restart.  I don't appreciate the implication that I'm unaware of my surroundings.

 

-Greg

Way to start off here with your first post...by calling those up front narcissists...nice!

BTW...what position does the narcissism end?? 

 

If every car is 5' from the car in front of them...32mph or 40 mph changes nothing when the first car goes!

 

Find the guy who left a gap then tried to anticipate the start by mashing the throttle to soon...only to have to go back to the brakes!

 

The hard braking and split cars at 12 was a result of all the cars who left large gaps during the caution laps and then raced to catch up...ZERO to do with the speed of the pace car/leader. The larger the field, the worse this affect is. It drives me crazy at some of our large regionals when you get 4 or 5 Donkeys who leave 100 yds between the car in front of them and it keeps the back of the field from getting 2 by 2 on the start...especially when the pace car driver has to take a leak! Same goes for double yellow laps!

 

Ironically, at least in our region and our local tracks, the green flag is waving as the lead car comes out of the last corner onto the front straight. Granted, at RA the leader cant see the starter until they are long beyond the last turn but I can only imagine what would happen if they maintained pace car speed until they could see the flag.

 

Bottom line is the guys up front did what is normal and this region has accepted for this track.

[Waterboy]

Danny's pace had absolutely nothing to do with this.  Not sure who was behind the trim tek car, but that car got stopped when the field checked up and the car behind him should have as well and didn't.

 

The pace is the pace no matter how fast or slow.  If everyone is lined up like they are supposed to be, bumper to bumper, this doesn't happen.  Someone commented earlier that they left distance between them and the car in front (something of that nature), that is the issue.  People don't stay up on the car in front of them for various reasons and the accordion starts.

 

Danny and Todd's speed were very consistent and predictable as evidenced by their videos.  They didn't start and stop, speed up and slow down, they were a consistent speed.  Behind them someone was not and it caused this mayhem.

 

+1 to Ron's post above.

[Waterboy]

From Davids video it looks like it was either the 83 or the car in front of the 83 that wasn't able to stop when the trim tek car did.  Where are those two videos.

[FTodaro]

For years I have posted, I think its unfair in general to make judgements on monday morning with all the benefits of video and hindsight, as that is not what you have before you in the cockpit.

Rolling starts, while not textbook, they are mostly used by everyone and in my view the safest start, less of a chance of a rushed missed shift.

Danny's gap with pace car, not really a factor, as to how and when he pressed the accelerator, but it's also in control of the pace car too, he could slow also. In my view this start by the front is not out of range reasonable starts.

How I would change the start:
Pace care slow the field, more getting to 14 and the following pack close up sooner, the back of the pack was going faster than the front in part because they were not tight at 12, pace car and pack could improve on that.

People were trying to catch up it looked to me before the leaders hit it.

In most racing incidents there are generally a combination to factors that come together to cause a crash,

As far as blame you can put me on that list as my wreck at 7 is what caused the yellow to come out.

[Jim Drago]

My video is in my car in Ohio.. This is Craigs from P4
You can clearly see the top five here. No lagging, no stop and go, no games..

http://youtu.be/UGA_KkHH3Ag


Here is Lukes from P10, again pretty uneventful.

http://youtu.be/LDqwYI6QprM

I don't want to blame anyone.. Yes Danny left earlier than "normal", maybe a little slower than "normal". However this didn't effect what happened behind us at all. There was no brake checking etc, no stop and go, no speed up and slow down, no games. IMO, even if Danny maintained the pace out of 14 and up until he saw the green, it doesnt change the carnage that happened. It sucks and all are saddened by it. But as I have said before, I dont believe this was caused by Danny or any of the front runners "playing games". You can clearly see all five of us here. It looks "normal" to me. IMO Someone behind p10 accelerated and hit brakes harder than normal and that caused a chain reaction. We are all open fopr suggestions, if someone sees something that we should have done differently, please comment. I think the end goal is not to have this happen again.

[Zauskycop]

Okay, I was the car behind the TrimTek car, and was nicely keeping pace with him and he accelerated up to catch up a bit...I did to keep pace, then he stopped.   When he hit the car in front of him.   That is when I hit him.  

 

I accept some blame for not being ready to STOP my car, but that said, going into the last turn before the front straight at RA, I don't personally feel that stopping the car should have even been possible??   I was prepared to slow and on rear video I was smoking my tires braking...couldn't stop.  Neither could the 6 or 7 cars behind me...

[Stix37867]

As I stated in my post, this did not start anywhere near us. If you watch Josh's video (trim tek), you will notice that the cars in front of him are already banging bumpers before he gets hit from behind. I have also seen video from around 17th or so place. This video also shows cars banging bumpers ahead of him. Because of all that, the pace slowed dramatically and caused Josh to gain quickly on the car in front of him causing what ensued next.

Please do not attempt to tell any of those involved in the crash what we should have done differently or that it's our fault. This was all caused by the actions of those ahead of us. There are still many videos missing from the story so don't rush to judgement yet like the SCCA did when publishing that we all got what we deserved.

My car is toast and there is nothing that is going to change that. The only thing I want now is to educate people. This was an avoidable incident!

[Keith Andrews]

At this point you have to groups showing what they did and saw.  They both show neither caused the incident.  You do see in one video the accordion starting in turn 12, well before the impacts.  Maybe we get the video of the guy who missed a shift or misjudged things happening in front of him maybe not.

 

The one thing you see in the wreck video's is you can't even see the mirrors of the car in front of the car the camera car is following.  The cars were hitting almost completely square front bumper to rear bumper.  Very commendable to be completely lined up with the cars in front but no chance to dodge them.  A slight offset for visibility might help.

[Ron Alan]

David S...I 100% agree YOU were an innocent victim in this. I dont think anyone is lumping ALL the drivers who had unfortunate damage into the BLAME group.

 

In fairness to whatever did or who started this...I dont want to assume or claim the action was intentional(as I may have before). As easily as it could have been an early start then brake...it could have also been a missed shift. Bottom line is it would seem to be a perfect storm...and in the end, an action then reactions caused a result that really sucks. 

[Tom OPM]

Danny, it is quite simple.  If you had kept with the pace car as the GCR specifies, the stackups would not have happened or at least would not have been so severe, and the crash would not have taken place.  If this is in fact the way starts have been conducted in major races, then I think this is a much bigger problem and I'm sorry that you had to be the one at the lead when this happened, especially since by all accounts you are a very nice guy.  I imagine that the tone of this thread would be much different if any number of less popular drivers had been leading the field back to green.

 

I do think it is unfair of you to lump the whole class of hundreds of drivers in with the maybe 10 who have been pulling these shenanigans.  I just reviewed the restart from last fall's regional at RA and the leader followed the rule (not sure who it was), and there was no drama.  The leader(s) at the sprints, and possibly the safety car driver made decisions that led to this, everyone else's errors were solely in reaction time.

 

I'm sorry to be so rude about this, but I can't sit quiet while the forum tries convince itself that everything is okay and that it's just other peoples money so it's not a big deal.

WOW really, does anyone take responsibility for their actions anymore. I really tried to stay out of this but this is crazy. I hate that cars were torn up and and a really great race ended too early. But seriously take some responsibility people.

#1 It's the June Sprints, drivers are looking for a advantage on a restart.

#2 Drivers at the front did what all drivers should have and would have done in the same situation.

#3 Drivers farther back were also looking for runs and to make up positions.

#4 Drivers in the back got caught up in situations they were not expecting.

 

On a single file restart you ALWAYS have to be ready for the bungee effect. It happens all the time. When it happens get your eyes up and off the car in front of you and your hands will follow. To be crashing before the leaders get to the green is drivers just not expecting the unexpected. When you strap in that race car you and only you are responsible for you and that car. Watch the videos from the front, no stopping, no accelerating just a pretty even smooth slow pace. If you run into the back of someone in traffic whose fault is it. You can not tell the cop well the guy 2 cars up hit his brakes.

 

This is a big deal and I would be pissed if my car was torn up but everyone has to take some responsibility for their own actions.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

WOW really, does anyone take responsibility for their actions anymore. I really tried to stay out of this but this is crazy. I hate that cars were torn up and and a really great race ended too early. But seriously take some responsibility people.

 

This is a big deal and I would be pissed if my car was torn up but everyone has to take some responsibility for their own actions.

 

Tom we as Americans no longer are required to do such thing!  Therefore why would we?  

 

If there is a lesson to be learned from this incident it is keep your eyes up the road and anticipate every moronic action from those around you at all times. That thought process will not always save your bacon but it does about 90% or more of the time.  I personally expected a big crash on the restart with only a couple laps remaining, I would have bet it would be in turn 1 myself but I was well aware that something was coming, and I'm only partially clairvoyant.  

 

I personally never try to be totaly in line with the car in front of me, I always want to see as far ahead as possible and I try to put myself in that position on every start or restart.  Its a shame that some seasons were most likely ended in t14...  I look on the possitive side of it myself, everyone involved still has the capacity to type at the keyboard and post some video, it could have been much worse and someone could have been seriously hurt, glad it was only cars as they are all replacable!

[Bench Racer]

When it happens get your eyes up and off the car in front of you and your hands will follow.

Ding, ding, always keep your eyes up and off the car in front of you and your hands will follow.

[Craig Berry]

Tom, your points are dead on! This does not seem complicated to me. A racer or racers got too aggressive over a partially blind part of the track on a restart. The mistake was made, and it was Not the responsibilty of P1 to anticipate what will happen several cars behind. I feel so bad for guys caught up, that tried to do it correctly.

[Tyson Schwiesow]

I'd like to see issues like this discussed in drivers' meetings prior to the race rather than announcements of where dinner is being held. I find it hard to not agree with something in each of the posts. Almost all have made valid points. I do think we should try to come to a consensus going forward as to whether starts/ restarts should change in some way. Eyes up, off center of car in front, pace of pace car in front, and pace of those throughout field have all been good points.

I'm the next car ahead of David in his video. I don't recall hitting the brakes prior to the impact and was surprised when I saw them light up in the video. I take responsibility for hitting Greg in the 83 and do think I should've had my eyes up more. Having raced with guys around me in the train I can say that all raced clean and well.

Main issue for me in this is to use the opportunity to clarify for all drivers (speaking as a second year spec driver) whether something needs to change or how restarts can and will differ in big time races. I do appreciate the dialogue.

[Bench Racer]

Tension release:

Please read sub-lines and stick around untill the video is complete.

https://www.youtube.com/v/_CwHrJt8Oz8

[gblaser]

My point, that I'll make one last time and then I'm done.  The rule is 100% clear, the leader is required to keep pace with the pace car. I didn't say that anyone brake checked or slowed, or intentionally caused the crash, or was even considering the consequences further back.  If the field had slowly accelerated with the pace car as it should have, then the field would have naturally spread out instead of bunching up.  Problem solved.

 

Why is the rule there, if we weren't meant to follow it?

[AJ Roderick]

 If the field had slowly accelerated with the pace car as it should have, then the field would have naturally spread out instead of bunching up.  Problem solved.

 

 

 

Only in a perfect world...but lets face it, this is spec miata.

 

 

EVEN if Danny would have done that, there's no way you can say that other people won't bunch up. The field spreads out, people catch up, people slam on brakes, boom collision. Just like it happened.

 

This could have happened no matter who was leading or how they took the green. After watching the videos, the front stayed slow, constant speed and took off. Why didn't everyone else?

[Caveman-kwebb99]

blaser, I suppose you never bump draft anyone in a race right?  thats a rule also, one we werent necessarily meant to follow...  The leaders did what they did, they did what any racers with any common sense would do...  There was a wreck, and it had nothing to do with staying with the pace car!  

 

it was an accident one that smashed your car,  I was in an accident at mid ohio that totaled a car a few weeks ago, I was intitled to racing room on the racing surface i got a slight nudge which put me into the grass, you can ask anyone who was around me after it all, was I bitter in the slightest bit no.  I was disapointed it happened but accidents happen all the time and they are just that accidents. 

 

Trust me everyone feels horrible about your car, as well as the other cars involved, but even the NTSB would never be able to place fault on any particular driver.  

 

What your insinuating is that Danny is responsible for the crash, and NO he is not, not by a long short, and neither are the so called lame asses...

[Pogo]

View from the caboose.

 

http://youtu.be/SSie23dBH9U

[Keith Andrews]

 

 

Trust me everyone feels horrible about your car, as well as the other cars involved, but even the NTSB would never be able to place fault on any particular driver.  

 

 

 

Whoa, not so fast there.  Trust me the NTSB would be able to determine there was pilot error involved.