138 replies to this topic

[suck fumes]

That crap happened at road atlanta at the ARRC a few years ago and it is very frustrating when the people behind you don't play fair.

[wheel]

Danny,

My point was that the only guy on whom you can comment was the guy right behind you.  The rest of the cars are not required to stay with you, only with the guy in front of them.  Now, if you are saying that they colluded to all drop back as a group, that is something different.  I don't blame you for changing your speed to try and keep the guy behind you from getting a jump, but he is the only one who actually dropped back, since the rest of the guys were exactly where they were required to be.

 

wheel

 

ps, I have done what you did on many occasions, and for the same reason.

[DrDomm]

What should the "pace" be at the front?  How fast do the pace cars typically go on starts/restarts?  Looking at data, what speed was the leader and others going?  How far off was the speed?  

 

Packing up always seems harder than it should in these races with so many Miatas.  People at the back seem more concerned with scrubbing tires than staying with/catching the pack sometimes.

 

I need video.

[Jim Drago]

I would sure like to pulled from "lame ass driver" group as well. While I am sure I am deserving of that title in many instances, this just isn't one of them   I was just looking at Craigs bumper and never off it, never laged back.

[Tyson Schwiesow]

I was in third gear and feathering the throttle directly between turn 13 and 14.  My only self critique is that I may not have had my eyes far enough up the road at that point as I was pretty much staring at Greg Blaser's rear bumper.   Not sure I would've noticed a change in pace and almost certain that it wouldn't have mattered as I was hit hard from behind first, which then sent me into Greg's left rear bumper.  I believe the barriers block the view of track out at 14 for the guys coming up near the apex of 13.  I'm certainly not in a position to blame anyone, but appreciate the discussion to see if it can be avoided again.  I say this because I most certainly will do another June Sprints.  

[NPiekarski]

I feel bad for all those involved. I didnt hear the story about Franks incident, but very sorry to see his car in such a mess.

[scott sanda]

The problem with all of this is simple: How can the starters know if the lead car "took off" or if the 2nd place car "dropped back"?  Ideally, if there is a gap, (someone define what the gap should be...), the starter should wave you off.

 

This doesn't always happen, at every track, everywhere. Oh, and what would be the hue and cry if the officials black flagged cars for not starting properly? Actually they don't do that any more, they simply DQ or penalize you at the end, so you get a change to protest and retain your finish position. Black flags for starts are pretty final.

 

I have been in 70 car single file restarts and nobody has piled up in the middle. Hell I was in a 65+ car start at the Sprints one year where I was about the last car out, and I ran at full speed the whole pace lap, just catching up to the field as it was exiting 12. Nobody crashed. (to be fair, about 50% of the field broke during the race....).

 

It is incumbent upon the drivers to maintain distance, speed and awareness. Someone went to fast too soon, and drilled someone else, and at that point it was a Charlie Foxtrot.  You cannot blame that on the poll sitter, or even the 2-5th place drivers.

 

It's also not the event officials fault, or the tracks fault, or the  fuels fault, or Boko haram's fault.

 

It is 100% the fault of the driver or drivers who initially drilled other drivers from behind.

[davew]

Danny, I admit to baiting you into making my point for me.

 

For years, the ultra competitive Spec Miata class has looked for any advantage available to them. Whether that be a non-techable modification, or a non-punishable restart. I think that is a fact, no one will dispute.

 

I was standing at the top of the bleachers at turn 5 with a good view of the exit of turn 13, most of turn 14 and the entrance to the pit lane. I monitor race control and the corner reports along with driver communications and my crew in pit lane. I had 12 drivers in the SM race this weekend. From my conversations with them, and my first hand observations (both radio and visual) this is my opinion of what happened and at the end what needs to change.

 

Several drivers complained that the initial pace laps where very slow. From my position at start finish (I call the green from start finish before going to turn 5 for the races) the start of both races appeared orderly and within the letter of the rule. I commend everyone for that, especially the pole sitter.

 

The incident at turn 8 caused emergency vehicles on both sides of the track (I have not seen a video myself, so if this is wrong, correct me.). This should have brought out a red flag or a full course caution right away. Instead it was handled with local yellows for about 2 laps. Up untill this point, I heard no statements from either race control or the corner stations concerning driver conduct in the yellow flag area.  I heard race control ask the corner workers " how are the drivers behaving?" With a response of "not very well". The officials then decided to go full course caution. Driver actions should NOT be the determining factor in deciding if a full course yellow is required.

 

Once the incedent at turn 8 was resolved, the track was clear of all emergency vehicles as the pace car was in about the turn 2 area. At that point the pace car had been going fairly slow in order to allow more time for cleanup. Once the clean up was completed the pace car should have sped up to a 40-60 mph pace. I thought, as I watched in Turn 5 that the pace car was still slow.

 

As I watched the turn 13-14 area, I saw the pace car roll up the hill while the pack was significantly behind it. And the pack was slowing. The pack was nicely formed behind Danny. Danny accelerated as did the pack directly behind him. The big wrecked happened after Danny, Jim, Craig etc where on the front straight. Corner 13 called in to race control stating "80% track blockage". It was 5+ seconds later that my pit lane crew announced the green flag was out.

 

The second full course caution which led to the race ending (which was a correct decision) was not called until the leading drivers where in the kink or beyond. Some 3 miles and 2 minutes after the  wreck had occured.

 

My concerns are:

1, Why so long to go Full course caution following the initial incedent at turn 8.

2. why not a red flag

3. why such a slow speed by the pace car once the incedent area was clear

4. why even through the green with 80% track blockage

5. why wait so long to go full course caution again

 

Danny agreed that he did not follow the GCR procedure for restarts. In all honesty, if I where in his shoes I would have done exactly the same thing he did.

 

So how do we fix this. 

1. Starters need to be more willing to wave off the green

2. at least at Road America (due to lack of visibility with the front straight hill) have additional start judges posted in an area that does have visible access to the hill.

3. Anyone breaking the rule of "iii Drivers must maintain the safety car’s pace and not improve their positions or begin racing until the green flag has been displayed to restart the race". must be black flagged immediately. Slowing down to purposely improve your ability to jump the start is "improving your position". In other words stay the "F" in line behind the pace car, just like you were taught in driver school.

4. Remember the decision of the start judge is not protestable.

 

I do put a small amount of reposibility on Danny and whomever was behind him. Creating a gap is improving your position and not per the written rules. But, each of the mid pack drivers involved made the choice to start accelerating prior to the green flag. They have control of their own steering wheels, brake and gas pedals. Remember this was still a full course caution and you are to have complete control of your car and be prepared to stop. The blame goes to them.

 

As a member of Chicago Region and a sponsor of the event, I whole heartedly agree with Danny, putting any faith in the SCCA officials at this event would have been foolish. This type of thing happens every year at this event. Event management from both Chicago and Topeka should be ashamed of the things that happened. They won't. Nothing will change. And next year 250 cars will show up instead of 500 like we had a few years ago.

 

SCCA needs to pull their head out of their asses and decide if they want to be a 21st century race sanctioning body or be a 1950's social club. Right now they are neither.

 

Everything from test day registration, to tech, to impound to... left another rotten taste in my mouth.

 

Dave

[Jim Drago]

It is incumbent upon the drivers to maintain distance, speed and awareness. Someone went to fast too soon, and drilled someone else, and at that point it was a Charlie Foxtrot.  You cannot blame that on the poll sitter, or even the 2-5th place drivers.
 
It's also not the event officials fault, or the tracks fault, or the  fuels fault, or Boko haram's fault.
 
It is 100% the fault of the driver or drivers who initially drilled other drivers from behind.

Ding ding!

[Todd Lamb]

So who was cheating this weekend - show of hands?

[Todd Lamb]

That ^^^ was a placeholder while my video uploads - bummed nobody took the bait.

 

Fun weekend, pretty much man drama free until now. Danny is all bent out of shape because he feels people are placing him to blame for the stackup, so he's lashing out trying to deflect blame. He was not at fault, aside from the slow start which may have contributed but didn't cause it. The speed was reasonably constant from T12 to T14. There was no slowdown at the front, although Danny did go green on his own at the entry to T14.

 

I watched Ted's video and he was in around 15th or 20th...pretty far back...he had a little checkup due to cars in front but it was not a panic stop or anything. But 3-4 cars back were coming very fast and collected an entire group.

 

So here's my video - you decide what happened up front and which "lame ass drivers" did what. Pay special attention to me very slightly accelerating to keep up with Danny thru T13, and very slightly slowing down to match his speed as we approached T14. IMO Danny did nothing wrong (despite the letter of the GCR), but I don't quite see how he's deflecting to me or any of the "lame ass drivers" directly behind us.

 

http://youtu.be/FdEuAmq8vRo

 

Thanks to Ted Cahall for letting me play this weekend. Sorry to see all the torn up cars, but glad everyone is OK.

 

Thanks to Hawk, Driven, AMG, East Street, and in general to all the SM drivers for being fun to drive with.

 

Spechul moment of the weekend goes to Danny for trying to SIP the shot of Jager that Tom Brown bought on Friday night. And possibly to Drago for getting a hangover off a shot of Jager (and nothing else to drink).

[Caveman-kwebb99]

I will say this, there was plenty of lame driving I can not say if it was at the front but it was definitly around 15-20...  guys pulling over in front of cars going 10+mph faster up the front straight in an attempt to try to keep a pass from taking place, DANGEROUS AS HELL!!!!!  It could have caused one hell of alot more damage then the restart.  After being given a tour of the T3 beach area I was well back of the carnage Thank god for silver linings! 

 

I can say I saw more damn lockups and flat spotted tires before we even got to t14 by guys at the back hanging back then gunning it to catch back up to a pack moving at -30mph... Never understood why people think yellow flag is go at your own pace, if everyone would just stay in line and close up on the car in front there would be no more accordian effect then the original start...  

 

IMO nobody at the front is at fault for cars smashing into each other before t14...  Keep your eyes up looking past the end of your front bumper, I could see the smoke rising from the crash before I saw the first smashed car. 

 

As for comment about doing regional only from now on might make some sense for him while I have already decided I am taking the direct opposite approach...  Im sure that nobody has ever smashed into each other in a regional restart.  Hell I even smashed into Seb Landy at ATL when I fell asleep headed into a yellow but I guess it was a Majors race.  

 

Obviously I was not as close to the front as I would have liked but for my first time to the place I think I did rather well.  I was sickened to see Frank in the wall at t7 after working tirelessly to get his car in great racing shape only  to have to write it off.

 

The most fun at Raod america IMO is not even the track, Its going out with total Drunken Idiots like Down Town Tom Brown, and  Ted Lamb, as Well as Hunch back Franky... Seeing Drago and Steyn taking their medicine AKA "cough medicine shots"  now thats priceless!  

 

Having the first ever Planet Miata Car under the East Street tent, People playing with dog poop, one guy getting blue balls, York winning fastest lap of the day on the go kart track. All made the event more fun then I can remember at any recent race!!!  

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Oh and Ted Lamb please call Danny and find out what kind of camera he runs, yours isnt so great  

 

I could have learned the t14 technique if camera was more clear lol

[Todd Lamb]

haha that's a video of a video of a video - I shot it with a potato in the trunk.

 

-Ted Lamb OUT!

[Todd Lamb]

It's worth mentioning, in the helpful spirit of the class, just how many people are responsible for the car that won. It was a donor bought from Al Bell at Summit Point. Picked up by Meathead and taken to the Ti-Speed shop for OPM to trailer back to Atlanta. OPM built the car in a week before Runoffs last year. Atlanta Motorsports Group currently preps it (as does Meathead on occasion), and the HP/tuning came from East Street Auto. Pretty much a group effort! How cool is that?

[Ron Alan]

Never like to hear about or see mass car casualties in our class   I would say about 50% of the time it gets brushed under the rug as a racing incident...when in fact someone always shares a majority of the blame. In this case, though maybe not fair in the eyes of some, anyone who rear ended someone needs to assume that responsibility. Especially the first guy who didnt recognize what was happening and used the car in front to slow down. I realize the rest often is a chain reaction and difficult to blame those who get caught up...but i guarantee all are thinking what they could have done different for the next time! 

 

Side note. Own up when you feel you share some responsibility or all. Accept apologies when they are given with sincerity and remorse...all have or will be on both sides of these hand shakes. If you keep finding yourself giving the apologies, seek help or listen very closely to what your fellow drivers are telling you...even if they are whispers in the paddock or nasty posts on a forum...odds are there is validity to what is being said. Dont be that guy!!!

 

I cant see how the guys up front assume any responsibility on this one...even if it wasn't a text book restart!

 

Somewhat of another side note but kind of relevant...at our last event I noticed one car with no brake lights and 3 or 4 with 1 side out. I think its pretty dam important that these work and you should always check yours and let other know when they have brake lights out!!

 

 

Dave W,

 

I hope your region listens to you and I'm sure many others. The world is changing constantly(for better or worse)and as much as i love Fred Flintstone, I don't want him running our club. He still may be able to use his feet as brakes but the majority of us like rotors and pads!

[Keith Andrews]

I'm not sure why any of the guys up front are feeling the heat for the mid-pack stuff.  Maybe some misinformed stuff was rattling around the paddock that caused bad feelings.

 

I agree with Danny, the guys behind were trying to game the restart.  We all look for any advantage we can get.  I know the team thing is very frustrating and combine that with the games of racing and blood pressure goes up.  

 

That has absolutely nothing to do with what happened behind the top 5 that you can see in Todd's video.  The accordion must have been taking place much further back.  The guys up front sure looked ok in my view.  I would have liked Lamb on my bumper if I was Danny.  It almost sounds as if Danny had maintain pace car speed up the hill to the Green, the same thing would have happened, possibly even worse.  

[Jim Drago]

I figured I would put a little positive spin on this post.. Atleast from my perspective.


As I have said on here many times, the Sprints is usually my favorite racing weekend of the year. Heading into this weekend, this year was no different. We put a lot of effort into winning the Sprints and have the cars prepared as well as we do for the runoffs. I am very proud of our accomplishments there. We have won seven of the last 8 June Sprints, Danny spoiled our Black panther party in 2010

I want to congratulate Todd for winning the Sprints this year, I know it is an acomplishment most want to add to their resume before hanging up the drivers suit. While we are all competitive and all think we are better than the next guy. I think a real strong case can be made that Todd is probably the best driver to come through SM. He ran two of the smartest races of the weekend. In Saturdays race, I had Todd covered on pace as my car was perfect and he had knocked his toe out of whack, he managed to use the draft and what pace he had to stay close. He was in a tough spot as if he moved on me, Berry would have picked me up and shuffled him to third and he knew it. He stayed close, took one shot at five which I defended and he took the best result he could with the circumstances as they were, which was second. On Sunday, he was where he wanted to be, then when the caution can out he made his move at the most opportune time. More importantly, he was thinking ahead. It should have been no secret this race would end under yellow as the last three have now. I was a little upset with myself for not stressing this to myself and my team mates. In hindsight, we obviously should have pressed earlier. Something needs to be done about that Team driving stuff as Lamb pushed Danny right passed Stearns, That's just not fair!

Some highlights...
Todd Lamd wins first June Sprints!
Jim Drago wins 4th June Sprints
Jim Daniels wins second Sprints
Podiums for Drago,Lamb,Berry,Steyn and Stearns
New track record set by Erik Stearns in Sm
New track record set by Jim Drago in STL

Shamelss promotion...
East Street powered cars took five of six podium spots and both wins
East Street powered cars took six of the top ten spots in both races.
East Street powered cars have won the last 7 of 8 June Sprints.
East street cars set two new track records.
All in all , we love this place and consider it a proving ground of sorts and displays months of hard work.

[Tom Sager]

Speculation from someone who wasn't there but have seen incidents like this before...

 

Field gets relaxed during extended FCY.  Just before restart middle and back of pack increase speed to tighten up gaps while front maintains a slower pace.  Some in pack are not sure if the green will fly (no radio or too far back to see pace car pull off).  Some in pack get racey before others in front of them only to be surprised pack is not moving.  Others behind follow suit as not to be left behind. A couple cars have to use brakes in the process and all hell breaks loose.   

[davew]

Todd, any video from Ted's car? Looks like that is about where the poop hit the fan.