856 replies to this topic

[Todd Green]

IMHO Dyno doesn't work.

That isn't how the dyno is used in SM (and Mueller please correct me if I'm wrong).   It doesn't matter what HP/TQ you make as long as it is in line (within some delta) of the others.  This gets rid of the calibration/weather issues etc.  If there is an outlier they will do more checks via other methods.  Unless you were referring to moving SM to a power/weight class like PT.   That would be a nightmare given the competitiveness of the class.

 

While we are on the subject of dynos, sometimes the results actually help vindicate someone.  When I first switched to running SM there was one car that absolutely crushed everyone (unless our National Champ ran).  People would always come up to me and ask if he was cheating.  One person (not in the class) even asked if I he had a 1.8L in his 91 (and I think they were serious.)  Well long story short, we all put our cars on a dyno and he was like 7 HP under what the top car made(*).  That shut a lot of people up, and you have to hand it to Tyler Dahl; the boy can wheel a car.

 

* No he wasn't cheating on the dyno.  We were actually all trying to make power getting our AFM's tuned.

[Ron Alan]

 
That said, ill buy some old heads that may be illegal once the rules are determined.  They make for great EP and STL heads.

That right there is a grand slam for the plaintiff!

[Bench Racer]

Does anyone have $ riding on the decision being repealed? (besides the top 10)

J~

If I understand the SCCA appeal rule correctly. When the COA delivers a final decision, that'll be the fat lady singing, it's over.

[Sacslider]

Quick question...

 

Not having owned or used a bore scope, Is it possible to inspect the STR with one from the intake track side? 

 

Thanks

[dstevens]

Maybe do it like some local roundy round guys (and horse racing).

 Make our races "claimers".

For a certain fee at the end of the race you can buy anybody's motor.

So , go ahead spend a gazzilion dollars, but you could end up losing it for ???? + some kind of core charge..Perhaps the fee could be equivalent to the cost of a crate motor.

Might apply this to trannys and diffs also.

 

 

 

Claiming rules aren't a magic bullet and also add other issues.  Some use them as a strategic tool to manipulate the season.   At the level of the Runoffs it's not local racing anymore. It's entry level pro racing.  For what someone that runs up front in SM spends one could run a full season plus in the Whelen All American feature class (usually late model or super late model) or a K&N Pro Series effort.  At that level there is no claiming though there are harsh penalties and comprehensive tech.

 

SM (and club sports car racing in general) have a process issue with respect to tech which is the real issue here. This particular issue is claimed to be unclear but what's happened is inconsistent tech over the history of the class has contributed to the situation.  In K&N or even Whelen classes if you do well expect to carry parts of your engine back at every race.  Even local races.  Until there is a more consistent, focused tech effort at the Majors level racing this sort of issue is going to happen where something that everyone has been doing hasn't been brought to light even though it is outside the scope of the rules.   It shouldn't take a group of racers ponying up five figure protest sums to insure the rules are being followed.

[Bench Racer]

Quick question...

 

Not having owned or used a bore scope, Is it possible to inspect the STR with one from the intake track side? 

 

Thanks

Never used, never viewed someone using, Would think engine builders have experience. When searched also found a high end scope available for free try out.

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=M8WAZU00_n4

[zoomzoom22]

why the cars found non-compliant weren't DQ'd vs. moved to last place is still a mystery to me that as far as I know the SCCA hasn't explained

 

Tow money maybe?  Politics?  I asked the same question a couple of pages ago and why Kaiser was DQ why the others were just moved to the rear.

[Matt Busby]

This I find to be the most interesting detail... Perhaps this is a "save face" kinda thing. 

 

"We will not allow you to win, but its kind of a technicality, so we wont put a DQ at run-offs on your record either."  ???

 

I dont envy the SCCA tech folks, there are going to be mad people no matter what the ultimate outcome is. 

[Tom Sager]

This I find to be the most interesting detail... Perhaps this is a "save face" kinda thing. 

 

"We will not allow you to win, but its kind of a technicality, so we wont put a DQ at run-offs on your record either."  ???

 

I dont envy the SCCA tech folks, there are going to be mad people no matter what the ultimate outcome is. 

I think you're right that no matter the outcome, some will not be happy.  As for not issuing a DQ, that may have been done to avoid penalty.  I believe that SCCA rules require a penalty or points to be assessed against the driver if a DQ is issued for a rules infraction.  In this case moving the drivers to to the rear of the field penalizes the finishing position but doesn't require points or a penalty to be issued.  

[SaulSpeedwell]

"Just ideas, maybe bad ones. I'm not an engine internals expert. Maybe you need a SMEBAC (Spec Miata Engine Builders Advisory Council)."

Would this be the foxes guarding the chicken house?

 

Maybe?  But if you let the Kalamazoo Sewing Circle make the rules and manage the enforcement, we'll be in REAL trouble.  That's where truly crazy rules and enforcement comes from.

 

All of the engine builders I know want to stay in business and have happy customers.  Customers demand power, and the engine builder tries to make the customer happy.  Every engine builder I know will HAPPILY make you an engine built to the GCR with no "gray area" exploitation.  But I know very few DRIVERS that will request that, and fewer still that will request that and then not comlpain when their 116HP mill isn't letting them have any fun.

 

A few engine builders I know essentially left the SM business (more accurately, lost most/all of their SM business), because they simply weren't interested (for whatever reason) in building anything other than a lilly-white zero-excuses 100% GCR-compliant motor.  That essentially hurts drivers that WANT to drive an hour away to have their engine rebuilt, as opposed to crating it off to "Engine Builder Of The Year" on the opposite side of the country.

 

The engine builders aren't the problem.  "We" are the problem, and it goes back at least as long as Miatas winning SSB Runoffs with Sunbelt stickers on their fenders.  "We" have never been as culturally wed to "Spec" as the SRF guys.  With 4 engines and 25 years of "stock" parts to sift through, that is probably a good thing.  If we applied SRF enforcement to this class, every driver would have been tried and drowned as a witch by now.  Even the 15th place guy that never got a parking ticket in his life.

[Charlie Hayes]

Quick question...
 
Not having owned or used a bore scope, Is it possible to inspect the STR with one from the intake track side? 
 
Thanks

No you cannot. With valves open you can feel it, but for something of this nature I think eyes and touch are needed. So valves out and head upside down.

[RazerX]

Just being pragmatic, you need to think of the 80/20 rule of things.  Some people will always cheat, most will get caught eventually.  It is the way of things.  It is our job as an active community to shun a known INTENTIONAL cheaters and make them feel uncomfortable and unwelcome.    Given the length of the thread is seems we have many citizens who want fun, competitive, fair, class.  I know a few of those who finished in top 6 at the runoffs and they want the same.     They did not want or need a cheat, they wanted beat the next guy, mano y mano.  I see much integrity there.  

 

Rules can never will be 100% black and white.  There is a profession that employs attorneys who make a living interpreting words.   It seems to me the rules were clear and there was a willful, optimistic interpretation of the rules.  And that is fine.  Part of racing is looking for the edge.  Sometimes the line is crossed with your interpretation and you pay the price.  The tech shed is judge if you cross the line in their opinion you are DQ'd.  The grey line is a little more black and white.

 

I know most of top drivers in the runoffs did not ask for a cheater motor and i know a few of them would not need one to win on any given day.  So I am looking at the builders.  If i bought several $7k anything from someone and they were 'defective' i would want them fixed, at their expense.  If not, I will not buy from you again and I will help put you out of business.  That is capitalism boys.  Saying the market made them do it just naive.  Hey the kids want crack cocaine, it is still illegal.   So the surplus and what to do with "illegal" heads is a bit off the real top and justification mechanism for other arguments.

 

I like the concept of a dyno at regional to see who is off by said some % and may warrant further investigation.  I like the ride-along GPS NASA does as an extra data point.  A willful cheater can beat the dyno or anything else for a while as I noted above.  But I really feel that smart people will figure out a way to see if there is a switch or other device affecting it. I know of a lot smart diagnostic tools for electronics.   

 

I am for clarifying the rules and preventing more creep.  This still is a healthy class.  IF there wasn't this much discussion i would be more worried.  People are active here because they care.  Write the board.  State your point.  Police each other.  Have fun. 

 

No one I like drinking beers with than a fellow SM driver, unless that was you who totally dive bombed me at T4.  You know who you are...

[Steve Scheifler]

I see nothing in the GCR prescribing minimum penalties or penalty options by type of infraction. On the scale of A-K in order of severity, loss of finishing position is F, DQ is H. It appears that the penalty is entirely at the discretion of the officials. I did not check Runoffs sups for any special rules about it.

[Parity]

This just in from Lisa Noble/SCCA:

 

"As you are undoubtedly aware, a number of Spec Miatas were found out of compliance at last week’s SCCA National Championship Runoffs. Jointly, we want you all to know that this situation is a top priority for our collective staffs and the boards and committees at SCCA. Together, we are forming an independent committee to review both the current rules and the long-term direction of the class. We will share more on this as it develops.

 

 

 

In the meantime, there is concern by many of you that, based on what transpired at the Runoffs, your engines may not be compliant. As a short-term solution, SCCA is suggesting to Regions holding events between now and the end of the season that they might establish a “Regional-only” class, dubbed SM1 in addition to the regular Spec Miata class. Our recommendation would be that the class follow the GCR Spec Miata regulations, but with a variance to the items in the cylinder head section to allow competitors with these modifications a place to race for the remainder of the season. This will be addressed by each Region on a case-by-case basis. It is not a requirement that they do this, but rather a suggestion.

 

 

 

Working together, SCCA and Mazda have evaluated many options this week on how to address this situation in the short term, and we feel this is the fairest course of action at this time, allowing everyone a chance to race.

 

 

 

We will share more information as appropriate, recognizing that time is of the essence with the 2015 season fast approaching."

[Steve Scheifler]

I think it would make much more sense as a temporary measure to add weight and let them run in the same class.

Let's take an optimistic estimate of 2hp advantage in a car currently at about 19lbs/hp at the wheels. Round up to the nearest 25 and you get +50. With that the largely innocent but fast drivers will still be competitive, the class remains intact, and everything is administratively simpler.

[Rob Burgoon]

I think it would make much more sense as a temporary measure to add weight and let them run in the same class.

Let's take an optimistic estimate of 2hp advantage in a car currently at about 19lbs/hp at the wheels. Round up to the nearest 25 and you get +50. With that the largely innocent but fast drivers will still be competitive, the class remains intact, and everything is administratively simpler.

 

Playing the devils advocate, there are probably some cranky people in a regional points race that will be upset with any sort of concession to non-compliant heads they have raced against all season.

[Steve Scheifler]

Sure, but that doesn't change regardless, unless your point is that this gives them a chance to make up points in some regional championships they lost all season. I wonder how many people in contention for such a thing will run the alternate class because they think they may be non-compliant. Seems like a stretch, but if you give them weight and let them stay are they much more likely to comply? I would think so.

[mdavis]

Agreed with added weight.

 

To those who are cranky, understand their point, however- I guess they would be happy just doing time trialing at their next event?

[MPR22]

We are forming an independent committee to review both the current rules and the long-term direction of the class.

 

 

Those are the scariest words this class may ever see. 

[Caveman-kwebb99]

I would never show up to race in some smX class myself. I also wouldn't add 50lb just to go do a race. My car is now non compliant so be it... I don't believe my engine has any advantage over anyone else in the field even though found non compliant at this point IMO of course.

I stay home. Already made new plans arrc is out and a fun weekend is in the works at far less cost.

Just my opinion.