136 replies to this topic

[davew]

Please do not underestimate John Doonan. He has been racing longer than many of you have been alive. His father raced for many years and John has raced himself in the past. And he hopes to race again soon. He may be the public arm of Mazda Motorsports, but his heart is in the drivers seat.

 

Mazdas opinions and input should be very highly valued. What is good for Mazda Motorsports in the long run will also be good for the racers in the long run. And vice-versa.

 

Dave

[Johnny D]

Danny has been possessed by Andrew!!!!!!

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=O_6oxv1lYa4

J~

[Glenn]

Please do not underestimate John Doonan. He has been racing longer than many of you have been alive. His father raced for many years and John has raced himself in the past. And he hopes to race again soon. He may be the public arm of Mazda Motorsports, but his heart is in the drivers seat.

 

Mazdas opinions and input should be very highly valued. What is good for Mazda Motorsports in the long run will also be good for the racers in the long run. And vice-versa.

 

Dave

Having worked for the last 3 years in IMSA/GA, I can say personally that John and his staff are the best thing this class could ever hope for.  They are consummate professionals and great guys to work with.

[Danny Steyn]

Too funny. Stepping off my flight from Auckland to Melbourne, started reading the thread, put my phone in my pocket, went through security, opened the thread and saw what my pocket had to say!!! :-) and I concur wholeheartedly! !!!

[Danny Steyn]

I have a solid vote for Mazda's involvement both in the rules and the enforcement. We keep on talking about "the fox guarding the henhouse", and the dilemma that no one will do this thankless job unless there is some commercial interest.

But Mazda does have commercial interest, and as long as John Doonan or any of the guys at Mazda Motorsports are not drivers at the front if the SM class, then I think we have our perfect solution. Commercial interest (skin in the game), a serious desire to see this amazing class continue, and no conflict of interest..... hopefully!!

[davew]

The sad part is Danny's right butt check types better than Charbs!!!!

 

Luv you both

 

Dave

[Brocodile]

To the conflict of interest point: I assume Mazda makes money on its parts, and thus wants to sell lots of them. I certainly hope it's a profit center; otherwise parts availability is bound to become a problem sooner than later. Beyond that direct interest, racing is an integral part of Mazda's marketing program. Logically, then, it's in Mazda's best interest to help maintain the popularity of the class, whether by providing an ample supply of parts at a reasonable price, or by providing technical support when necessary. Right now, it looks like that support is needed. 

 

In my opinion, any conflict of interest is more perceived than real. We should welcome Mazda's expertise. I'm guessing their involvement will be confined to suggestions for revising the current ruleset and perhaps crafting fixes for the plunge cut and, more significantly, the excessive CR without junking a bunch of heads. I can't imagine they would want to put a representative on the CRB. If they do, I say welcome to our world.

[FTodaro]

I'm ok with their stated goals.  The way I read their press release, this has more to do with the way the SCCA handled the Runoff's than any specific rule.  The ruling by the SCCA was and is being handled so poorly (IMO), I can understand Mazda's interested in getting it resolved.  This has very little to do with how a head is machined in my view.  It has more to do with the fiasco the sanctioning body made of the runoffs.

 

I'm guessing SCCA National will give Mazda's point of view more weight than it should.  Who knows where that will take the class.  

 

I think you may be right, this could be more about how SCCA handled things, you have to admit, it sure sounds like there could have been a legitimate issue of poorly crafted rules, at play. That falls on SCCA. 

 

this just does not make anyone look good.

[FTodaro]

The sad part is Danny's right butt check types better than Charbs!!!!

 

Luv you both

 

Dave

I was thinking Charbs hacked Danny's account!!

[Johnny D]

 it sure sounds like there could have been a legitimate issue of poorly crafted rules, at play. That falls on SCCA. 

 

this just does not make anyone look good.

 

It not just a few rogue engine builders huh?

 

J~

[Bench Racer]

It not just a few rogue engine builders huh?

 

J~

The thing that makes me see red is that previous to the issue at the Runoffs these same guys would have looked us in the eye and argued this bull$hit massaging and smoothing the port runners was legal. Only heard about the smooth runners second hand today. Trust the second hand info guy who received the info from someone hands on who I also trust.

 

Is there a gag order on the head issues, no ones talking.

[MPR22]

On to the son of Pat Ross. Never could you find a post of mine to support your two comments above. Several years ago the site sent me on vacation for a period, don't factually remember for how long. If I remeber a few others have taken a vacation, more so from th eprevios site operator. I try very hard never to post sarcastically, really. The ol skin is pretty thick and most likely why now and then I stick it back to someone who has it coming. Did you feel the stick? 

 

 

I was using your fondness for the old days and translating that into my fictional character.  You don't seem to like today's rules. You keep harping on the Mazda factory methods of plunge cutting as if it will make the competition more level.  

 

I did not feel any stick, but little pricks have never bothered me.  

[Bench Racer]

I was using your fondness for the old days and translating that into my fictional character.  You don't seem to like today's rules. You keep harping on the Mazda factory methods of plunge cutting as if it will make the competition more level.  

 

I did not feel any stick, but little pricks have never bothered me.  

Some pricks add nothing technical to the subject at hand, maybe the research takes to much time. The whole point of knowing the mazda proces is that the process could be provided to the enegine builders so they could plunge cut an un-shroud without a secondary process to eliminate burrs or hanging stuff other than possibly a high pressure water wash. Had the engine builders followed a process as (there trial and error process didn't work) completed by other OEM head manufactrues we wouldn't be in the mess we are today and all psibilities are Drennan ould be the National Champion. I beleive todays plunge cut and un-shroud rules need a bit of clarity and there good to go. I do understand todays rules alotho there a bit bussy. Carry on, I'm out of this thread.

[steveracer]

We all know Ross is a size queen...

 

 

(somebody HAD to say it)

[dstevens]

what does mazda motorsports know about machining a cylinder head?  do they build sm engines even?  You would have to speak japanese and get their engineering department in on this especially on their professional racing side and im sure they have nothing better to do then worry about the world of SM...

 

Dont get me wrong they are very nice people to deal with when I buy my parts most helpful as a matter of fact, but I personally dont feel they have the expertise on this one to weigh in.

  just my.02

That is a poorly formed opinion.  MSM provides support to top level, professional race teams with far more experience than anyone in SM or even the club ranks of SCCA.  They bring resources that no other single entity can bring to the class short of having another manufacturer involved.  MSM is more than the nice folks that sell parts at a discount to racers and thinking the company wouldn't be able to adequately address technical concerns in this package is naive.  They have serious, high end motorsport engineering professionals directly employed and available via the pro teams they support.  To imply that MSM lacks the technical ability to consult the class is laughable and not supported by the facts.

 

Yep, Datsun had theirs too after an impressive string of victories, but I rarely saw any of their racing promo stuff outside of the showrooms of those dealers who "sponsored" someone or had an enthusiast on staff. It ain't NASCAR.

This isn't Datsun and then, it's Mazda and now.

 

You may not watch as much motorsport on TV as I but the Mazda promotion extends well outside the dealership and is presented often (sometimes a bit too often for my taste, but those series don't have enough TV sponsors to begin with...)  on national broadcasts every week during racing season.  They also have a non trivial print campaign.  There is a huge branding effort on the part of Mazda to equate the popularity of sports car racing, including club racing, with the Mazda brand.  It's not NASCAR and that is what I think makes the campaign more impressive in that the promotional effort is just as professional but for a much smaller market.  Sure they could leave just like Dodge left NASCAR and more recently sports car racing.  But they are here now, have a vested interest in the class and bring resources to bear that no one else associated with the class currently can.

 

If anything, I say "what took you so long?"...

[James York]

. Carry on, I'm out of this thread.

Best news i read all day.

[Steve Scheifler]

dstevens, you miss my point. I was responding to the comments about "the masses" and such. They understandably advertise to people involved in racing or in that very small niche (compared to NASCRAP) of road racing enthusiasts. More of a contstant reminder of what we already know rather than to reach a broad audience. If I ask 10 random people in the office which import car maker is most involved in road racing the first response from at least 9 will be "what's that?".

As for their expertise, I think you grossly over estimate what is required here. Say what you will about the rules, people almost always know when they are breaking them. People are the biggest problem, not the rules, and at this amateur level it is impractical to enforce whatever rules they or anyone can dream up because there isn't the time, money, will or expertise for constant invasive tech. You may be able to fix a couple of those, but not all of them, and I for one don't much care what happens at the Runoffs or even the "Majors" when it is a free-for-all the rest of the season.

[Steve Scheifler]

Self-check time here. My comments about being a free-for-all has more to do with the past than the present, at least from what we have seen lately. Even granting that there are other things going on but not being discussed here, it can't compare to the wild, wild, west of years past. Not even close. There will always be people with very dark glasses who see shades of grey where none exist no matter who makes the rules.

[dstevens]

dstevens, you miss my point. I was responding to the comments about "the masses" and such. They understandably advertise to people involved in racing or in that very small niche (compared to NASCRAP) of road racing enthusiasts. More of a contstant reminder of what we already know rather than to reach a broad audience. If I ask 10 random people in the office which import car maker is most involved in road racing the first response from at least 9 will be "what's that?".

As for their expertise, I think you grossly over estimate what is required here. Say what you will about the rules, people almost always know when they are breaking them. People are the biggest problem, not the rules, and at this amateur level it is impractical to enforce whatever rules they or anyone can dream up because there isn't the time, money, will or expertise for constant invasive tech. You may be able to fix a couple of those, but not all of them, and I for one don't much care what happens at the Runoffs or even the "Majors" when it is a free-for-all the rest of the season.

I get your point.  I just don't think it's well reasoned position.  Mazda invests non trivial amounts in motorsport marketing and while your opinion discounts it, I don't see that as holding up to what is actually happening.  Asking your coworkers if they know about it is a strawman argument and doesn't change the fact that Mazda invests in promotion that highlights club racing.  Those same people probably couldn't tell you that Hinchcliffe changed teams or Verstapen was going to STR because that's not what they are into.  What they know or don't know has no bearing on Mazda's efforts to promote itself through racing.   Mazda uses other campaigns to advertise to those that aren't racing fans in that way.

 

To say there can't be invasive tech is a cop out.  Every weekend during race season even the smallest short tracks pop the tops off of motors and take parts out, clutches, rear ends, etc.  When I was running hobby stocks we almost alway had to show carbs and cams, sometimes more internals as well as suspensions.  In the bigger dollar classes it wasn't uncommon to have a teardown to a short block if they though it warranted.  In short course off road it's much the same with a bigger emphasis on suspensions.  I can be done. The SCCA just isn't doing it.

 

I see the issue as more organizational than people.   For the most part the situation with the SCCA are club volunteers that have little to no experience doing this but they seem well meaning and have a genuine desire to help.  Some do have experience but others from what I've seen have the best intentions but when something that has actual experience though has a commerical position get involved then people start crying impropriety.    Then some of those same people claim that other are cheating and there is no tech.  They can't have it both ways.  There is a lot of money in Spec Miata racing.  Not perhaps as a profit center for most businesses but the participants spend a lot of money to participate.   They shouldn't have to spend money to get the sanction to enforce the rules.

 

Like it or not, SM is pro level racing in terms of budgets and commitments to run at the top level.  One can get a $10-15k car and race and have fun, but that ship sailed in the pointy end years ago. The NAs have been taken out by the market and really aren't part of that mix anymore.  There is a place for the "everyman" but it's no longer the "everyman's class" and hasn't been for a while.  For regional races only it's a different matter but for nationals and the Runoffs the SCCA needs to step up and enforce the rules in this manner but the governing structure of the SCCA is hindered by archane protocol and procedure that it's difficult to get anything effiecently done.  Case in point is the NASA response.  Quick, simple, effective.   Even with the best intentions that is not what the SCCA has been.  There isn't a technology problem, it's a structural management problem.

[FTodaro]

 

 

They shouldn't have to spend money to get the sanction to enforce the rules.

Dave, you are always going to have a disconnect between the rules and enforcement of the rules. In a volunteer  organization  you have to take what you get and there will always be inconsistent application and inforcement, if you are not happy with that then you have to pay for it. 

 

I volunteer for our region and know the complexities of putting on the show.