535 replies to this topic

[AJ Roderick]

And the reason we don't is because we don't want to waist our money knowing we don't have a chance to get into the top ten. When I know I'm a way better driver then that and that's a fact. I drove both cars and I know the diff. Between both and I know I could be a lot faster in the 99 then my car. Yes there was a diff. In hp and TQ and they had the same car prep but even with 5 more hp and 5 lbs of TQ in my car I would still pick the 99 it is easier to drive. I just don't have the money for a new car. I am willing to put 2-5k into my car to bring it up to pair. That's a lot cheaper then building a 20 to 30k car.

Buy my '99, its ready to go and you wont have to build anything. lol

 

 

My home track is Mid-O. 45 minute drive home each night. Regional entry fee $400, gas maybe $50, pack a lunchmeat samich and some waters $5-10, amortizing brakes and other consumables maybe $100. Total $560

 

Even if I bought new HoHos each weekend (I don't, I use them 12-16 HCs) add another $700. Total $1,260

 

Please tell me where I should spend the other $1,240 to $1,940 each event to achieve "Top Prep".

 

 

Someone tell me what would be bad about making money spent less of a factor in SM. Is there a way to remove at least some advantages of spending. Is that not what the class was designed as, a "drivers class"?

I have some ideas where we could spend that money, but it wont be at the track

 

and just an idea for the making money spent less a factor, the transam series has cost limits on certain parts such as shocks, brake pads, etc for their TA2 class. Not sure what we could really put as a cost limit for stuff on our car but possibly an idea

[Jim Drago]

Someone tell me what would be bad about making money spent less of a factor in SM. Is there a way to remove at least some advantages of spending. Is that not what the class was designed as, a "drivers class"?

Suggestions?
One problem we have is the more we spec, the tighter the rules... the more the costs.

One set of tires per weekend?

[Marc Cefalo]

          Greetings everyone!

with the silly season in full effect (spec miata parity discussion time), i feel beyond compelled to write to everyone as well as the CRB.  listen closely and please choose carefully what you may do to the best amateur road racing class in several decades.....

there are countless online posts on Mazdaracers.com of parity within SM and what should be done about it.  owners of 1.6 cars would have you believe that they cannot compete at any level, at any track unless a laundry list of modifications will be allowed on their cars.  light flywheels, cams, headers, standalone computers, updated suspension components and the list goes on and on.

if you think the whole short turn radius deal at the runoffs was a mess, wait until you attempt at opening this Pandora's box

true, SM began with the 1.6, grew in numbers because of the 1.6 and owes much to those model years (90-93) and owners for building what we have today.  let's be honest though, our club has seen a huge drop in SM entries with 1.6's and it's membership has made huge financial expenditures to race the newer cars. 

there are numerous reasons.  first and foremost being that the majority of top drivers, prep shops and budgets have migrated towards the 99-00 year cars.  this migration went into full effect once the runoffs were moved to road america.  4 miles, elevation changes and ridiculously long straights.  the writing was on the wall with basic physics.  the smaller displacement miatas would never be able to compete for the top spots at the runoffs.  every year except 2006, a 1.8 liter car has won the runoffs, whether its was at heartland park, road america and now laguna. 

these results coupled with people's perceptions, slowly gained steam to the point where we are today.  we at Planet Miata, have not built a new 1.6 liter car since 2009, but we've lost count as to how many 94-05 model year cars have been constructed.

while it may not make sense for people to base their build decisions on one race a year, it happens.  just not SM.  every class looks to it's champion to see what year, make, model of vehicle it was.  formula car racers look to the chassis manufacturers.  and of course every class lets one engine builder shine for 12 months as they are the one's who have risen to the top of their game.

as someone who has been a member for almost 20 years, who's raced Mazda's his whole life, let me tell you just how much i care about the future of SM.  I care about one the finest cars ever produced.  i earn a living from numerous aspects related to mazda miatas.  i wake up every single day and think of the simple little car.  I struggle to constantly think of how to build better SM's, service my parts customers nationwide, keep costs down for everyone while maintaining a cool head to help direct this amazing class to a solid future without screwing it all up.

I personally have owned and raced all four combinations of spec miatas over the last 12 years.  none of them were cheap builds.  none were half hearted attempts to be competitive.

the following is my take on the current parity amongst the different years and how to make the cars closer.

90-93 1.6 liter cars:

the hardest to drive fast all the time yet the most rewarding.  lightest and easiest on tires, brakes and suspension parts.  low on torque and difficult to race in traffic yet has the best power potential high in the rpm band right up to it's rev limit of 7400.  Hello Daytona!

fragile oem diff but can be upgraded per the allowed rules.

tuning can be finicky because of a horrible fuel/timing curve and the car is more sensitive to temperatures.

least expensive donor chassis to buy

should be given one (1) ITA based modification....  that way the car can still be double dipped at regionals and performance can easily be monitored.  my suggestion is a 4-1 header that is spec'd with a specific part number.  Racing Beat is an american company who makes them and can easily handle the potential orders with the excellent product.  the 4 into 1 nature of the header will help with hp slightly and torque.  cost is less than one set of new tires.  $448 retail

http://www.racingbea...ders/56005.html

94-97:

similiar to the 1.6 cars yet with obviously the larger 1.8 motor, brakes and stronger diff.

slightly heavier but very consistent performance in different temps.

basically it's what the 1.6 should have been right out of the box from mazda. 

could use the 47 mm plate back on....  most owners still have the plate and can grab it out from their tool boxes and bolt it right on.  expect a 2 hp gain.

99-00:

the benchmark of the class plain and simple.

tourque, hp, better suspension geometry, the list goes on.  makes up the majority of regional and majors events in 2014.

there should be no change to this car  remember, it's the benchmark that all others are weak to in some aspect.

01-05:

new kid on the block.  great mid range torque.  terrible high end hp.  horrible flowing intake manifold is one cause of this power characteristic.  the car you do NOT want to have for Daytona and the runoffs.

identical chassis design to the 99-00 cars

most expensive to build

no change to this car

06-14:

your out of your minds if you think this car can be equalized.  it is a total clean sheet in terms of design and engineering.  2 liter motor, huge brakes, huge tires, heavy and a completely different animal altogether.

it allready has its own class within the gcr called SM5

let the playboy cup cars run one more year.  then mazda will mandate that they have to run the newest generation cars and suddenly an influx of old playboy cup cars can come into that class very easily.  on paper the rules for SM5 make so much more sense.  Please be patient and allow for it to grow by itself without upsetting the balance we currently have with SM

parity changes should be chosen carefully.  the last thing SCCA or it's members need is to take SM and completely screw it up.

baby steps everyone......

--
Marc Cefalo - Owner - Planet-Miata.com

#256244

[pat slattery]

Mark, the header idea sounds good but is there any dyno testing to back up if it really helps?

[TJKearney]

Marc,

 

I thought the ITA guys (mainly Andy B., as he was most forthcoming with his prep/research) determined a header to add almost nothing to a 16.L?  Some other credence to the retraction of the 1.6 numbers:  SM2.  It's virtually a two class system now (at least in the N.E.).  SSM was strong, but now is pretty much dead in all but WDC.  SM2 is the new regional playground for the 1.6's but that hurts SM numbers at regionals.  For a competitive guy with a 1.6, but little time to dedicate to keeping up with the Joneses, where do I (we) go?  Many of us have to quantify the amount we're giving up vs. "Mr. I spent 35k on my girl car"..take that ratio, and decide if we can live with it.  Obviously, there is always someone outspending you, out prepping you, etc.  But it stings when that guy sure as hell ain't outdriving you....

[James York]

My home track is Mid-O. 45 minute drive home each night. Regional entry fee $400, gas maybe $50, pack a lunchmeat samich and some waters $5-10, amortizing brakes and other consumables maybe $100. Total $560

 

Even if I bought new HoHos each weekend (I don't, I use them 12-16 HCs) add another $700. Total $1,260

 

Please tell me where I should spend the other $1,240 to $1,940 each event to achieve "Top Prep".

 

 

Someone tell me what would be bad about making money spent less of a factor in SM. Is there a way to remove at least some advantages of spending. Is that not what the class was designed as, a "drivers class"?

 

You are lucky that with your proximity to the track you can overnight at home.  But assume you had to travel and overnight.  (if you just run the same track all the time, that does not make you a good driver in my opinion.  Just muscle memory)  So, if you traveled, you would need to add fuel, food, hotel to your total.  You don't do a test day?...  At a top event you better.  What about dyno time for that finicky weather dependent 1.6L?  Do you do your own alignments throughout the weekend or do you need to pay for that...

 

I think if you added travel to your total, a test day, and some dyno time, you would be over the 2.5K and that's before you break anything.

[James York]

Chris,I understand what you are saying but you missed what I said. I said the cars had the same level of prep,never said they were the top level of prep. Sorry it's a lot easier sitting on the other side of the fence and saying they are equal when there is no way in hell are. There is nothing on this sight or any data that shows they are equal. If there is why isn't anyone sharing it with us,oh because there is none !

Another question I have is where we're the 1.6s at Laguna ? I thought I heard that track favors the 1.6 cars. I don't know if that is true or not,but if it is where we're they? Or did all the 1.6 guys that showed up didn't have a top level 1.6 or were they just bad drivers ? And what was the highest none 99+ car finishing position ?

My problems with the fact that I am pressured to sell my car and build another to be competitive. I thought this was a spec class and all cars should be equal but there not. And if you guys keep saying the are then why are some guys (you) building a 1.6 for Daytona when there is parity? If there is parity then any year car should have a chance to win on any diff. Track

Am I wrong ?

 

Couple of thoughts.  Same level prep (home built, street conversion, whatever) between a 1.6 and a 99 are NOT equal.  Top level prep is.  Anything in between favors the 99 since its newer, easier to tune and a restricted engine.  I have seen 99 with street motors do well with a good driver.  However, that will not happen with a 1.6 since you need the tuning, the magic downpipe, best flowing pieces, etc.  Just the way it is.

 

And second, spec miata is NOT a spec class.  It does not nor never has said that (other than the class description).  Cars will never be equal.  (the same).  They are different.  They can be made close but if your expectations are that any model will perform identical to all at any track, you will always be dissapointed.  Certain cars will always have advantages at certain tracks as long as they are only similar (or close).  You just need to pick your weapon that maximizes your ability to do well at the most venues, or pick multiple weapons....

[Jim Drago]

Obviously, there is always someone outspending you, out prepping you, etc.  But it stings when that guy sure as hell ain't outdriving you....

That sting is still there even at the front. We have all experienced this at some point or another and it is certainly frustrating. It is never easy to deal with, but IMO, it is even worse when you feel you have spent the money and prepped the cars etc. as you aren't sure where to go at that point.

[LarryKing]

 

But assume you had to travel and overnight.

 

Just went to VIR for Goblins Go. Seven hour drive, $80 gas oneway, total $160. Test day (didn't do it) $225. One night in hotel $109 (only raced Saturday) Let's double that to assume I raced both days $218. Food is a wash because I'd still have to eat if I stayed home. Still only adds $683 to the total.

 

 

What about dyno time for that finicky weather dependent 1.6L?

 

People dyno at the track? I use an A/F meter to adjust fuel pressure if weather compensation is needed.

 

How often do you change camber/caster at the track?

 

 

It does not nor never has said that (other than the class description). 

 

(Slight revision) Other than the class description it never said it was a spec class.

[mhiggins10]

For a competitive guy with a 1.6, but little time to dedicate to keeping up with the Joneses, where do I (we) go?  Many of us have to quantify the amount we're giving up vs. "Mr. I spent 35k on my girl car"..take that ratio, and decide if we can live with it.  Obviously, there is always someone outspending you, out prepping you, etc.  But it stings when that guy sure as hell ain't outdriving you....

 

This is the root of the issue- SM has become a victim of its own success, with clear "haves" and "have nots".  If the direction of the class per SCCA, SMAC, CRB, etc. is to continue to push top-prep, well funded teams to join and compete with highly prepped cars from specialized builders, then the STR/modification (and the 1.6, really) is a dead issue and we need to just accept it and move on.  If, on the other hand, the powers that be decide that SM should remain a budget-friendly entry level class, equalized on drivers ability (and not wallets) then changes need to come to effect that.  Clearly, we're at a tipping point.

 

When I wanted to start racing, SM was an obvious choice for many (in retrospect, ill-informed) reasons.  "It's a drivers class!  The cars are really cheap to own and run!  They're extremely cheap to buy! Brakes last half a season and tires last several race weekends- just change the oil and go race!"  Nobody talks about tech-shed legal, teams pushing each other along, pro heads and the other things that folks use to go up front.  You'll notice, I didn't mention practice, data analysis, talking to fellow racers, preparation- those things have to happen but even with the best of that, you won't consistently run up front at Regionals, much less nationals, in a reasonably prepped 1.6 car.   I'd challenge anyone to go pull the data from all of the races across SCCA- you won't see 1.6s generally up front.

 

I'm not sure I'd recommend SM to someone entering the sport for anything more than getting your feet wet now that I've been here for a couple of years.  If you have $20-30k to get in (well built NB), and $2500 a weekend to race 8 times a year (likely WAY to rich for the folks that started the class, BTW), sure.  If you, like me at the time, have $10k and a few grand a year to race, you'll be a regional mid-pack guy at best and never sniff the big races.  

 

It really comes down to what we want SM to be.  The folks here are vocal, passionate and represent probably 10% of the SMs that may show up to a race weekend.  Those folks are silent here, but I'm betting most aren't in favor of going bigger (costs, HP, time invested, etc.)

 

One other thought: Why don't those with huge budgets and lots of time and energy to invest move to a more pro class (SM5? Playboy Cup? GT/GTS?)  As a point of reference, I can go buy a Panoz GT2 car for $25-30k, and I'm sure there are many more that might fit the desires of those that want to spend/push/etc....  

[James York]

Just went to VIR for Goblins Go. Seven hour drive, $80 gas oneway, total $160. Test day (didn't do it) $225. One night in hotel $109 (only raced Saturday) Let's double that to assume I raced both days $218. Food is a wash because I'd still have to eat if I stayed home. Still only adds $683 to the total.

 

 

People dyno at the track? I use an A/F meter to adjust fuel pressure if weather compensation is needed.

 

How often do you change camber/caster at the track?

 

 

(Slight revision) Except for the class description it never said it was a spec class.

 

You must have quite the tow vehicle to only use 20 gallon of fuel to go 500 miles.  I am impressed.  My truck only get 19 mpg pulling nothing.  You want to win, you do a test day and double races, so triple your hotel.  Food is a wash you say....  Maybe for you, but I don't eat out at home for 3-4 days straight every meal.  Perhaps you do all the time. (might want to watch your waistline)

 

Seeing your AF ratio after your session is sort of too late isn't it?.....  Whatever.

 

Alignments...  sometimes every session.  How bad do you want to win?

 

Just do whatever works for you.  But Chris is correct, top contenders are spending a nice chunk of money every race weekend.  It's just the way it is these days.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Ok my proposal after carfull drawing on rock in cave:

 

1.6 give light flywheel and race beat header, they will still complain after that cost to much and still cant win

 

94-97 give them a sealed ecu from dynotronnics to increase rpm by 300

 

99-00 no change

 

01-05+ add 50lb. and give them 39mm plate

 

06+ no changes to current rules 

[LarryKing]

 

500 miles

 400 miles

 

 

I don't eat out at home for 3-4 days straight every meal.

Believe or not there are grocery stores near VIR. Point is I really ain't living the highlife on the road and spend roughly the same as home. The waistline comment, well, you're just being an ass.

 

 

Seeing your AF ratio after your session is sort of too late isn't it?..... Whatever.

Seriously, do people dyno at the track or not? They must hide the dyno cause I've never seen it.

 

There was a driver who ran SM a few year ago, I bet you can guess who, that showed up with a transporter, 4-5 crew, and a paddock set-up worthy of an ISMA team - probably a six-figure annual budget. Sure, that's his right, but I never understood it when we are racing for bowling trophies.

 

 

To echo Mr. Higgins above - what do we want the class to be? Expensive and exclusive? Do we want ALL the field-fillers to go away?

[mhiggins10]

Just do whatever works for you.  But Chris is correct, top contenders are spending a nice chunk of money every race weekend.  It's just the way it is these days.

 

Therein lies the question.  What do WE (all of SM) want it to be?  I would say you and I probably disagree.

 

Hopefully we can have a good conversation in person next weekend at TWS.

[Danny Steyn]

I like Marc's proposal, just not sure of the gains via the Racing Beat Header. 

[James York]

 400 miles

 

Believe or not there are grocery stores near VIR. Point is I really ain't living the highlife on the road and spend roughly the same as home. The waistline comment, well, you're just being an ass.

 

Seriously, do people dyno at the track or not? They must hide the dyno cause I've never seen it.

 

There was a driver who ran SM a few year ago, I bet you can guess who, that showed up with a transporter, 4-5 crew, and a paddock set-up worthy of an ISMA team - probably a six-figure annual budget. Sure, that's his right, but I never understood it when we are racing for bowling trophies.

 

 

To echo Mr. Higgins above - what do we want the class to be? Expensive and exclusive? Do we want ALL the field-fillers to go away?

 

I was just trying to be funny with the waistline comment.  Sorry if it was taken wrong.  You may be skinny as a rail for all i know.

 

Regarding dyno, mostly no because no front runners run a 1.6 due to reasons like that.  But yes, I have gone to tracks and seen 1.6 drivers on the dyno (sometimes track shops have them).  Hell, I remember Gorilla being on the freakin dyno every morning at the 2010 Runoffs (or maybe it was 2009) and he had a 1999 which normally adjust for weather/temp pretty good (not perfect though).  That dyno was booked solid.

 

The rest, assume whatever you wish and what you want to spend.  To me, its sounds as if you are a have fun kind of guy but not super serious about winning which is a good thing.  Its a free county and the great thing about that is you can spend as much or as little as you want.  I don't even understand why you are arguing about numbers.  You asked how Chris could come up with 2.5K per weekend.  I gave some examples of how it could quickly add up.  For me, its about 2 to 3k per event give or take.  If you can get by with 1K per weekend on 10 HC tires, great.  But you now have some example of what some people are spending money on each event.  There is no rule around how people can spend or how much.  But you give a great example of how SM can be raced on a budget.

 

And no, I don't know who showed up in a transporter with crew.  It's not really important, but I assume that person had fun and liked the personal challenge of the SM competition.  I don't want anyone to go away, I am only expressing my views on why things are the way they are and how much typically can or is spent by serious people.

[Alberto]

Good perspective from Mark above.

 

On another note, regardless of what you National level racers do, the 1.6 is still the most popular car in my region (SFR) for us regional racers.  None of us regional racers spend the sort of money that you national guys do.  My budget is similar to sacre bleu's.  Heck our regional only classes of Sealed SM and SMT are more popular than the standard SM and still challenging and lots of fun.  It is still a driver's class at this level since none of us are opting for this "top prep" whatever that means...

 

The one thing I'm taking away from this history lesson about SM is that it seems like the best way to transform an entry level class into a class requiring deep pockets is to make it a National class instead of a Regional class. 

[Danny Steyn]

With regard to the VVT vs 99 deate, this is what my cars look like

Both cars dyn'd same day, same dyno within a few hours of each other. Best traces of each are shown

You can see that for my cars, under 5500RPM the VVT car is better, but over 5500RPM the 99 is the car to have. Now others might be seeing different numbers, so I think it would be helpful to see other dyno info that can help us with our determination of whether the 02 car needs to be held back or not. IMO its a clear NO

 

[chris haldeman]

A properly whistling vvt car should not receive any penalty right now. They currently have no clear advantage within the usable race range.

[Jason J Ball]

James, not at all what I said. I would very much like to see the NA chassis make a comeback but do you REALLY think a significant number of people who own them will do such an extensive conversion? That this is a solution for the disenfranchised masses? Seriously?? Some of the "at any cost" crowd would if they thought it might somehow give them an edge, but the proposal to allow just suspension upgrades was overwhelmingly rejected (of those who offered an opinion). I wonder if you know just how much work, and expense for those who can't do their own, a complete power train transplant would be in addition to the suspension & subframes. More than the average 1.6 is worth, and a lot of people just can't do that.

A little late to this, but as a 1.6 owner and one man show, I was all for the NB suspension update and would do the drive train/harness/ECU in a heartbeat. I could probably accomplish the conversion in a weekend. I could also source all the parts for $500-$1000. Sure it would be a tired motor, but bolt on a good head and your 90% there ($1500). So for ~$2500 I could be completely on par with a 99' without question. If we had to meet the same weight is where I would have a problem. I already have ~90lbs on the floor next me as it is adding another 100lbs would/could be dangerous. 

 

Could I build an NB with $2500??? I might be able to find a donor for that much...