535 replies to this topic

[NPiekarski]

Open head rule, have to run stock compression, stock valve size, XX cc combustion chamber, go to town on the ports. Your stock intake and exhaust manifold is your choke now and toss the RP. Getting close to this point, probably cheaper in the long run too. Stock airbox on 1.8s, 1.6 keeps the air box rule as writen...and it runs a header from the factory. There Pat, now your the overdog.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Pat that's the most sense you have ever made except when you talk about all your 2.6 stuff

[Steve Scheifler]

As I said in the other thread, perhaps we should just wait for the announcement.

Thump thump thump... Is this thing on?
Oh what the heck, it's the only traffic you're getting until it's over.

[Brocodile]

Yes I agree Tom - not all will be happy. There will be some who are ecstatic. But no matter which way we go, but if EVERYONE is forced to get new heads then we piss off ALL the drivers, and there are many that either 

• cannot afford to do it
• just refuse to do it
• and those at the front who will have to do it to comply, as they will be going through tech, as in the past

 

And then what you have is a massive disparity between those that still have the old pro heads, who were previously running slightly off the pace, now moving forward to compete with those at the front that have complied and are running the "new" heads.

 

And this is where it potentially gets unpleasant. Do you say something to the driver??? What if he still doesnt clean it up, do you throw paper at a mid-packer???? Wont be long before those that were having fun say, no way this sucks, I'm outta here.........These are some of the unpleasant unintended consequences that have to be considered when instituting a massive change, one that not all can or will embrace.

 

But I have been wrong before!

 

Danny cuts to the chase.  As a practical matter, only the front-runners and a few honorable and/or naive mid-packers will replace their heads (or even inspect them to see if they are compliant).

 

That's why I suggested a revision of the rule to allow de minimis work around the edge; i.e., enough to save some heads, but not enough to create a discernible advantage... with the proviso that it be objectively measurable. Then, face it: Even with such a change, there will still be plenty of illegal heads in use behind the front-runners, and maybe among the front-runners at some events. It's too hard to police compliance in this area, so we have to accept the fact, revise the rule and move on. It's not a perfect solution, but it's good enough. No matter how this specific issue is addressed, it will elicit action by only the small number of drivers who have a shot at a podium at the very biggest events. Too much focus on it raises the risk that bigger issues will be neglected.

 

We should focus on routinely teching at the Majors and the best-attended regionals for the cheapest, most effective and readily-detectible cheats; compression, for example. A list should be made up and one or two of the significant items checked at each event. This will cause some delay and inconvenience for both the drivers and the staff, but enhanced credibility for the process makes up for it.

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

Open head rule, have to run stock compression, stock valve size, XX cc combustion chamber, go to town on the ports. Your stock intake and exhaust manifold is your choke now and toss the RP. Getting close to this point, probably cheaper in the long run too. Stock airbox on 1.8s, 1.6 keeps the air box rule as writen...and it runs a header from the factory. There Pat, now your the overdog.

If you allow this it would take more then a header on the 1.6 and I think there will be a larger gap in parity then we have now. I don't know how much the RP chokes the 99+ cars but I'm thinking at least 5-8 hp and allowing to remove them plus the open head rule these cars might push 140-150 hp. What will the 1.6 gain from a header 4-5 hp so how would it make it an overdog ?

I wish we could come up with some rules that will allow

All cars have no RP
1.8 gets a air box
1.6 gets engine mods
And are then able to adjust parity by weights per track

This would be great because I think we would all love to go faster and from this point on would be cheap because all we would have to do is add weight. This would take out the ( I got to have ) motor/ head of the year to stay up front.

I don't know about most of you but I would like to spend my money on my motor once and be able to run it the following year without having to upgrade to the latest greatest engine/ head mod !

[Tom Sager]

If you allow this it would take more then a header on the 1.6 and I think there will be a larger gap in parity then we have now. I don't know how much the RP chokes the 99+ cars but I'm thinking at least 5-8 hp and allowing to remove them plus the open head rule these cars might push 140-150 hp. What will the 1.6 gain from a header 4-5 hp so how would it make it an overdog ?

I wish we could come up with some rules that will allow

All cars have no RP
1.8 gets a air box
1.6 gets engine mods
And are then able to adjust parity by weights per track

This would be great because I think we would all love to go faster and from this point on would be cheap because all we would have to do is add weight. This would take out the ( I got to have ) motor/ head of the year to stay up front.

I don't know about most of you but I would like to spend my money on my motor once and be able to run it the following year without having to upgrade to the latest greatest engine/ head mod !

It would be fun to go a little faster but no RP means that there will be a much bigger reward for flowing, sampling and massaging engine parts.  Would increase the gap between haves and have nots and create a market for much more expensive engines IMO.  Those damn restrictor plates do a pretty good job of limiting the upside you can get from investing a lot more time, energy and money into an engine.  

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

It would be fun to go a little faster but no RP means that there will be a much bigger reward for flowing, sampling and massaging engine parts.  Would increase the gap between haves and have nots and create a market for much more expensive engines IMO.  Those damn restrictor plates do a pretty good job of limiting the upside you can get from investing a lot more time, energy and money into an engine.

It would be fun to go a little faster but no RP means that there will be a much bigger reward for flowing, sampling and massaging engine parts.  Would increase the gap between haves and have nots and create a market for much more expensive engines IMO.  Those damn restrictor plates do a pretty good job of limiting the upside you can get from investing a lot more time, energy and money into an engine.

Good points,never thought of that. Good thing I'm not on the board !

[Tom Sager]

Here's another thought.  How about if NASA and SCCA each have 1 event per season in each geographic division where slightly different weight or restrictor plate rules are utilized for the purpose or evaluating small adjustments.  Confine it to just weight adjustments to make it simple.  On the SCCA side this could be Majors events or regional events.  This could be a testing ground for competition adjustments that may need to be evaluated.  

 

Not suggesting that this should delay any common sense adjustments for 2015, but if you pick dates later in the season where this could be done it would be a way to evaluate how +/- 25 pounds or 50 pounds might impact one car or another.  That way heading into the off-season there is something to review.  It could even provide an opportunity to evaluate other modifications not yet approved but have been suggested or requested.   

[Diller]

Here's another thought.  How about if NASA and SCCA each have 1 event per season in each geographic division where slightly different weight or restrictor plate rules are utilized for the purpose or evaluating small adjustments.  Confine it to just weight adjustments to make it simple.  On the SCCA side this could be Majors events or regional events.  This could be a testing ground for competition adjustments that may need to be evaluated.  

 

Not suggesting that this should delay any common sense adjustments for 2015, but if you pick dates later in the season where this could be done it would be a way to evaluate how +/- 25 pounds or 50 pounds might impact one car or another.  That way heading into the off-season there is something to review.  It could even provide an opportunity to evaluate other modifications not yet approved but have been suggested or requested.   

 

 

I believe that would be great testing grounds but you would have to make it so that the drivers don't try to sand bag to prevent a future change. Be it a blind test (unknown weights/plates to the driver) or some really nice prize for a win that would keep the drivers honest.

[HoneyBadger - BrianW]

It would be fun to go a little faster but no RP means that there will be a much bigger reward for flowing, sampling and massaging engine parts.  Would increase the gap between haves and have nots and create a market for much more expensive engines IMO.  Those damn restrictor plates do a pretty good job of limiting the upside you can get from investing a lot more time, energy and money into an engine.  

+1000000

 

Those restrictor plates are what is keeping parity within the ranks of the 99's. Without that, you would see much larger differences between cars even of the same year. I would say that we shouldn't ruin the good thing that we have going already, but I'm pretty sure that boat has sailed.

 

Honestly, the way this whole affair is being handled has almost turned me off of the class. All the secrecy about what is or is not going to happen is seriously pissing me off. This is OUR GOD DAMNED CLASS. TELL US WHAT YOU ARE THINKING BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT FOR CHRIST SAKE!!!!!!

[Tom Sager]

 

Honestly, the way this whole affair is being handled has almost turned me off of the class. All the secrecy about what is or is not going to happen is seriously pissing me off. This is OUR GOD DAMNED CLASS. TELL US WHAT YOU ARE THINKING BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT FOR CHRIST SAKE!!!!!!

We need to be a little patient.  While this is taking longer than many would like it, we shouldn't expect it to move any faster than it is.  A number of people are involved across multiple organizations.  With the outcome will come some transparency.  Until then enjoy the mid-term elections, football and Thanksgiving. 

[chris haldeman]

Brian, I with you as are most every racer!! Secret meetings deciding rules with no driver input?? Really?? The answer will be simple. We the racers will band together and take our class and cars too other shows. Been done before can be done again. Best memories anybody ever tells me about revolves around the wheels of America series that operated under its rules and ran there own show at scca and NASA events. Kinda like mx-5 cup does now. And a few other classes

[chris haldeman]

Regional only kinda like smt in the west

[chris haldeman]

It's a hobby for most. Needs too be fun. This crap is not fun

[Waterboy]

How dare they think they can just change the rules without us. It would be different if we had some sort of committee keeping our best interests in mind, you know like some sort of advisory committee or something. Outrageous!

Now that I think of it isn't the crbscca site there for us drivers to give out input.

[dstevens]

How dare they think they can just change the rules without us. It would be different if we had some sort of committee keeping our best interests in mind, you know like some sort of advisory committee or something. Outrageous!

Now that I think of it isn't the crbscca site there for us drivers to give out input.

It's listening to the few vocal racers and following that path that's what gotten the class into the issues they have now.  I've said it before, there is a structural problem with the sanction and the way the rules and tech process is developed.  Until that is address you're just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic

 

At least the Titanic had a band...

https://www.youtube....h?v=iHsx1cvACkY

[Johnny D]

Have you submitted the request to the CRB for SCCA to have a band ??

J~

[Andrew Charbonneau]

Truth

[Andrew Charbonneau]

Toooo be very honest a lot of egg on face at every turn so not only must you drive you must politic to survive.

[Andrew Charbonneau]

wallets will open and moons will rise and sad faces will arrise