390 replies to this topic

[Danny Steyn]

Let me open another can of worms that is sure to draw out serious venom...... Flame suit on in preparation.

 

As someone who doesn't balk at spending what I need to spend to compete at the front of the class, here is a question for the 1.6 / 1.8 NA crowd, the same crowd that I personally feels does need some help:-

 

How much would you think is an acceptable amount to spend to bring your car up to parity with the 99/VVT cars?

 

For parity would you be prepared to spend $500, $1,000, $5,000, $10,000??????

 

Should we eliminate over-bores from our research, should we eliminate engine swaps???

 

What we have tried so far, the simple bolt-on stuff has failed to add any TQ at all

[Bench Racer]

Here comes Johnny, he's back to speckle a tad of humor.

 

Now out to the race car.

[stephanieandersen]

Let me open another can of worms that is sure to draw out serious venom...... Flame suit on in preparation.

 

As someone who doesn't balk at spending what I need to spend to compete at the front of the class, here is a question for the 1.6 / 1.8 NA crowd, the same crowd that I personally feels does need some help:-

 

How much would you think is an acceptable amount to spend to bring your car up to parity with the 99/VVT cars?

 

For parity would you be prepared to spend $500, $1,000, $5,000, $10,000??????

 

Should we eliminate over-bores from our research, should we eliminate engine swaps???

 

What we have tried so far, the simple bolt-on stuff has failed to add any TQ at a

For me, up to $5000 would be reasonable.  10,000 and I'm looking at starter NBs that need a little love. 

[FTodaro]

Let me open another can of worms that is sure to draw out serious venom...... Flame suit on in preparation.

 

As someone who doesn't balk at spending what I need to spend to compete at the front of the class, here is a question for the 1.6 / 1.8 NA crowd, the same crowd that I personally feels does need some help:-

 

How much would you think is an acceptable amount to spend to bring your car up to parity with the 99/VVT cars?

 

For parity would you be prepared to spend $500, $1,000, $5,000, $10,000??????

 

Should we eliminate over-bores from our research, should we eliminate engine swaps???

 

What we have tried so far, the simple bolt-on stuff has failed to add any TQ at all

Danny that is a good question.

 

Can the SCCA do a survey of the registered 1.6 owners and ask a few other questions too?

 

Some of this we can get directly from SCCA.

 

Like how may 1.6 cars race the majors in 2014 and to date in 2015.

 

How many would consider running majors if they felt they had a competitive platform.

 

I am kind of in the Drago camp on this question that there may only be a hand full of guys who campaign a 1.6, who would even consider running a Major.

 

It would be helpful to know this also, as the solution may change based upon that answer.

 

I know local to me the fast 1.6 guys do not run majors, I think its a legitimate question.

[Bruce Wilson]

Danny,

 

Don't eliminate anything.  From my perspective, the old days of crate and junkyard motors are long gone.  Take Oregon region for example.  We have a very healthy 1.6 series going this year.  Everyone parked their 99s and got back to grassroots racing in their VERY well prepped 1.6s.  The top 8 or so guys have regional, divisional and even SCCA and NASA national championships in some form or another.  Looking at the rest of the field, we see about 90% pro built motors in all those 1.6s (field of about 30).  I'm very sure that the past leadership's imposing what they tried in the past on today's field of 1.6s is a big oversight.

 

Do the overbore and be done with it.  Add appropriate weight and let the 1.6s without the budget fade out over the next year or so.  I think you'll find an increase in interest from all those guys that Drago says don't exist  I may stop considering which class to move too and hang with you guys for a while longer.

 

peace!

[Jamz14]

Matt, my personal opinion only. I think it would be a mistake to not drive your car at mazda raceway. At all types of tracks you and your car have proven to be able to hang with the fastest guy at mazda raceway in his 99+ car. You are also familar with your car. But I do worry that if you dont race a 99 and dont win, it will be because of the car. If it gives you the confidence you need to win, rent ron's 99 and be at peace that you are in a fast car and you have the tools to win. See you there my friend. I hope I can hang with you at some point on the track in my underdog 97.

[Blake Thompson]

 

For the 6 speed manual transmission post from RPW8000, Rich Powers. Open post number 119 on page 6 of thread, Rule Change For 1.6 Intake. Read the post and the attachment at bottom of page.

 

add to my list of quarrels your inability to use the Internet.  For a retired guy with a bunch of time this should come naturally.

 

http://mazdaracers.c...intake/?p=70752

 

Anyway, I think that's a dumb idea.  That trans was barely usable on the street.  I can't imagine it being reliable once you add monkey shifting and race rubber.

[Rob Burgoon]

I can't believe anyone is suggesting the 6 speed with a straight face.

 

 

 

I support Jim's devil's advocate idea.  Declare the 99 to be the car to have in the class mission statement and be done with it.

[Johnny D]

Good questions, health of the class which equates to car count right.

 

So $500 isn't getting much parity.

Why aren't people doing the majors is a good question

Would they feel better about coming out if they had a 1.6 class?

I don't think it's hard to do, have overall SM results and throw in 1.6 or even 1.8 result for the people feeling that they can't compete against a NB.

We all want to race together. Not sure a trophy or top 5 in class makes it better.

Not hearing too much about changes that people can't do already.

But the questions need to be asked, budget, affordability too.

J~

[Erik Hardy]

Hundreds of dollars for me. I have a very hard time justifying a bunch of money on parts when I would rather trade that amount of cash for more seat time, since that would probably be of greater benefit in regards to lap times than anything else. Financially, this sport is tough for me to do so I have to be careful where my $ get spent.

 

I have not, and will not bitch about the parity between the cars, I have no reason to. The engine that I’m running is an old stewart motor built back in 2010 I believe, which means the head shouldn’t have any kind of machining done on it. That’s what I was told and I trust Dave’s word on it. At this moment, I can’t justify the expense of machining the head or doing an overhaul on the engine; I would be trading hp for track time as I can’t afford to do both.

 

I know that a better driver can get into my car, and be quicker and more consistent. Until that is no longer the case, I have a hard time justify any kind of expense towards more hp. It wouldn’t feel right to complain that my car is an underdog when I am not going to every extent of improving the car like the guys at the front are. Moaning that a insufficiently prepped car can’t hang with a top prepped one isn’t an issue with the rules.

 

Personally, I think the rules are just fine. It’s never going to be perfect and why should it? Splitting up the class so everybody gets a trophy takes away the competitiveness of the class and makes us look like a kindergarten soccer club. Deal with getting beat, figure out you as a driver can improve the car and improve yourself? I am doing this to enjoy racing and become a better driver. Moving up the latter by paying for it doesn’t interest me. 

[Johnny D]

I like it. ^^

 

So if a letter went out most would say this ?

 

But what about the guys/gals that have parked it. Not competitive or just ran out of money or life got in the way?

J~

[ECOBRAP]

Matt, my personal opinion only. I think it would be a mistake to not drive your car at mazda raceway. At all types of tracks you and your car have proven to be able to hang with the fastest guy at mazda raceway in his 99+ car. You are also familar with your car. But I do worry that if you dont race a 99 and dont win, it will be because of the car. If it gives you the confidence you need to win, rent ron's 99 and be at peace that you are in a fast car and you have the tools to win. See you there my friend. I hope I can hang with you at some point on the track in my underdog 97.

 

I plan on racing a 1.8, never said it was 99+ More than anything it will provide a good reality check for me (positive or negative) in proven equipment!

 

As for winning... myself and many others believe it will be a battle for 2nd place, but we will find out soon enough!

[Tom Hampton]

Hundreds of dollars for me. I have a very hard time justifying a bunch of money on parts when I would rather trade that amount of cash for more seat time, since that would probably be of greater benefit in regards to lap times than anything else. Financially, this sport is tough for me to do so I have to be careful where my $ get spent.

 

I have not, and will not bitch about the parity between the cars, I have no reason to. The engine that I’m running is an old stewart motor built back in 2010 I believe, which means the head shouldn’t have any kind of machining done on it. That’s what I was told and I trust Dave’s word on it. At this moment, I can’t justify the expense of machining the head or doing an overhaul on the engine; I would be trading hp for track time as I can’t afford to do both.

 

I know that a better driver can get into my car, and be quicker and more consistent. Until that is no longer the case, I have a hard time justify any kind of expense towards more hp. It wouldn’t feel right to complain that my car is an underdog when I am not going to every extent of improving the car like the guys at the front are. Moaning that a insufficiently prepped car can’t hang with a top prepped one isn’t an issue with the rules.

 

Personally, I think the rules are just fine. It’s never going to be perfect and why should it? Splitting up the class so everybody gets a trophy takes away the competitiveness of the class and makes us look like a kindergarten soccer club. Deal with getting beat, figure out you as a driver can improve the car and improve yourself? I am doing this to enjoy racing and become a better driver. Moving up the latter by paying for it doesn’t interest me. 

 

I agree with you with the caveat of "right now".  However, the question wasn't phrased as such.  So....presuppose a time when no one is faster in your car than you are.  You are at the limit and finishing in the top 3-5 every race.  You are the highest placing 1.6L in every race you enter.  Now...you learn through your own data gathering or the data of others you trust...that your 1.6L is just a tick off from the cars that are on the podium. 

 

What would you spend? 

 

I'm with Stephanie....in the 5k range.  Other than the fact that I really like how the 1.6L drives....above $5k and I'd have to weigh the options for a new tub. 

 

But, if I'm spending money this way, I still want the car to be a 1.6L at the end of the process.   If all I'm doing is dropping in a VVT, updating the suspension, and adding weight....then its just a bug-eyed VVT and no longer a 1.6L. 

[Blake Thompson]

above $5k and I'd have to weigh the options for a new tub. 

 

There's something to be said for having solid state electronics and a car made this century.

 

but triple that figure to get started in an NB.

[Johnny D]

https://www.youtube....h?v=0wotB38WrRY

J~

[Blake Thompson]

https://www.youtube....h?v=0wotB38WrRY

J~

I'm using the wrong tweezers.

[stephanieandersen]

Hundreds of dollars for me. I have a very hard time justifying a bunch of money on parts when I would rather trade that amount of cash for more seat time, since that would probably be of greater benefit in regards to lap times than anything else. Financially, this sport is tough for me to do so I have to be careful where my $ get spent.

 

I have not, and will not bitch about the parity between the cars, I have no reason to. The engine that I’m running is an old stewart motor built back in 2010 I believe, which means the head shouldn’t have any kind of machining done on it. That’s what I was told and I trust Dave’s word on it. At this moment, I can’t justify the expense of machining the head or doing an overhaul on the engine; I would be trading hp for track time as I can’t afford to do both.

 

I know that a better driver can get into my car, and be quicker and more consistent. Until that is no longer the case, I have a hard time justify any kind of expense towards more hp. It wouldn’t feel right to complain that my car is an underdog when I am not going to every extent of improving the car like the guys at the front are. Moaning that a insufficiently prepped car can’t hang with a top prepped one isn’t an issue with the rules.

 

Personally, I think the rules are just fine. It’s never going to be perfect and why should it? Splitting up the class so everybody gets a trophy takes away the competitiveness of the class and makes us look like a kindergarten soccer club. Deal with getting beat, figure out you as a driver can improve the car and improve yourself? I am doing this to enjoy racing and become a better driver. Moving up the latter by paying for it doesn’t interest me. 

Very well said.  I don't need to take home a trophy to feel like I had a great race.  I want to be on track with lots of cars and lots of great competition, which is why the June Sprints was so appealing to me this year.  I know I'm not near the talent level of a lot of drivers, but running with the same five guys every weekend doesn't make me improve my skills at all.   The regional events are already lonely as it is, It would be sad to see the class split and have even less drivers to battle with.  I'm pretty confident that a very seasoned driver like Danny (or Drago, or Lamb, or Elder...) could win a Majors race sitting in my car. 

The NA's have room to be tweaked to be a little more driver friendly for those of us who don't have a million racing hours under our belts, but they are not so far off that they need their own class.

[Tom Hampton]

There's something to be said for having solid state electronics and a car made this century.

 

but triple that figure to get started in an NB.

Yes, I'm aware. 

 

For me, the ideal parity cost is LESS than the trade-up cost.  If it costs the same to gain parity vs. trade-up....then I'd trade up.  Exactly where that dividing line is, I'm not sure.  Is it 3/4, 1/2, 1/3rd of the trade-up?  Not entirely sure. 

 

But, once the cost starts to become a significant fraction...that's when I start to question. A significant fraction is in that 1/3 - 1/2 range.  But, a final decision would depend on the exact nature of the parity upgrade.  I don't think there is a hard-and-fast number..there's a lot of grey in the middle between black and white.  Less than $5k is pertty clear....but, the higher above $5k it gets the harder I'd have to think about the choices. 

 

So, I guess my point, which I think is similar to Stephanie's...is that the grey area starts around $5k...and turns to black somewhere around $10k. 

 

I think it would also depend on if it were a lump sum upgrade, or if it were a series of changes which could be phased in over time.  7 series of upgrades at $1k each is easier to swallow than a single $5k outlay. 

[Jim Drago]

Let me open another can of worms that is sure to draw out serious venom...... Flame suit on in preparation.

 

As someone who doesn't balk at spending what I need to spend to compete at the front of the class, here is a question for the 1.6 / 1.8 NA crowd, the same crowd that I personally feels does need some help:-

 

How much would you think is an acceptable amount to spend to bring your car up to parity with the 99/VVT cars?

 

For parity would you be prepared to spend $500, $1,000, $5,000, $10,000??????

 

Should we eliminate over-bores from our research, should we eliminate engine swaps???

 

What we have tried so far, the simple bolt-on stuff has failed to add any TQ at all

 

excellent question... I hope you get some honest answers.

 

it seems that 5k is the consensus so far...  fair enough?

 

While I hope my wife and many significant others aren't reading this... I can guarantee you most of the guys up front are spending Minimum of 10k a year just keeping there current car competitive. Most including myself are spending double that annually. That does not count the first entry fee, the first tire, the first gallon of gas on tow vehicles or the first night in a hotel room. Others can chime in, but I think unfortunately, that is pretty accurate.  

 

So my concern is how a $5,000 competition adjustment will bring 1.6 cars to the podiums? It doesn't stop with the adjustment unfortunately.  If the $5000 adjustment brings current 1.6 cars to the podium, what will it do with 1.6 cars that get built post adjustment? When people like me start sinking time and effort? Same problem as we have now, less turning the class on its' ear again.  I know it is not a popular statement, but it is reality and it is the truth.  

[Blake Thompson]

 

I think it would also depend on if it were a lump sum upgrade, or if it were a series of changes which could be phased in over time.  7 series of upgrades at $1k each is easier to swallow than a single $5k outlay. 

 

I stopped counting at 50 and I've had the same chassis for a decade.