390 replies to this topic

[Tom Sager]

Give yourself the instigator icon.

 

It wont be long before Sager will be reminding you that he does not view the 1.8 to be in parity either.

 

Bluntly, I do not think the task of getting the 4 platforms perfectly even, is possible, We can get them close but never perfect.

 

Hey even Murdick and Guthrie are working on building 99+ cars.

Well, maybe this will surprise you Frank.  I think the 1.8 at 47mm and 2350 is very very close to the NB cars.  I've only been out in mine once this year and left the track thinking I didn't have the car handling as well as it could have and was a little rusty as a driver after a 7-8 month layoff and jumping into the deep end of the majors pool without getting my toes wet first.   I plan to run the car a couple times in July and will be better prepared than I was a month ago and we'll see how that goes and I'll drive the '00 at a few events this year too. Won't start any new crusades until later in the year.  

 

For sure the cars (NA1.8 and NB) do handle a little differently and that is the bigger difference IMO.  

[Tom Sager]

Did you guys know I was the fastest NA6 at the sprints.  

Like being the tallest midget.  

[Blake Thompson]

Like being the tallest midget.  

 

yah and Wheeler keeps going on the bike and I'll earn the title of fattest ginger too.

[Jamz14]

James know you don't need help, but I'd take the torque everyday of the week.

Bench,

 

I understand your view. You are correct. I don't feel my car needs power help ( it does need heat help though ). I understand that you would take the torque. So would I. I will take any torque increase you would give me. My point though was that Matt may be perfectly suited to driving the 1.6 very fast and may not like the characteristics of the 99 as much. From what people say, the 99 is easier to drive mistake free but "feels" heavier and less nimble in the twisties. It has been noted that there our trade offs with selecting a particular year. If you agree than you have to at least consider that more torque given to the 1.6 may throw those trade offs out of balance. If parity is the goal then there is only one solution; We must all drive exactly the same platform. Other than this, our cars will not be equal at every data point. The point though is; are they equally competitive? That is different than parity. Matt has proven that in the hands of a very good driver, the 1.6 is competitive.

 

I also think that Matts video does not demonstrate a torque difference, but a difference in corner exiting. Take for instance the very last sequence in his posted video; he has to make a substantial correction mid corner that costs him just a touch of exit speed and is off line for most of the corner. Why would any year car retain the lead all the way up the hill at Sonoma under those conditions. Again, all this said does not mean that you and Matt are wrong about the torque! As matter of fact I think you are probably right. And me driving the 1.6 I probably couldn't even get close to what Matt does with it. He is a phenomenal driver and has gone toe to toe with the best as Mark has pointed out and has done very well.

[Ron Alan]

 

 

 

Super-duper assumption. I have no idea what it has to do with whether the 1.6 should be classed separately. Kinda like me saying people who drive 99s probably pee in the shower.

 

PS: I not arguing for help for the 1.6. Uncle - I give - make a 1.6 regional class, I'll STFU and run my 4-5 events per year, happy as a clam.

 

Actually, I'm thinking in a year or so I'll turn my SM into a rat rod hooligan and bomb it around the streets.

Maybe i confused you with someone else who was complaining about making weight in a car? I've always been for a 1.6 class...and split starts!

What "making weight" and "qualifying"(and bitching about it) have in coming is it is in the drivers control to find a solution! Pretty simple...but i know you know what i meant

[Tom Sager]

yah and Wheeler keeps going on the bike and I'll earn the title of fattest ginger too.

In my best Dean Wormer voice...

 

Fat, slow and red headed is no way to go through life son.  

 

You know I luv ya Blake.

[Blake Thompson]

In my best Dean Wormer voice...

 

Fat, slow and red headed is no way to go through life son.  

 

You know I luv ya Blake.

 

I can't wait to smash your new door.

[Todd Green]

The only way I see more participation at that level in 1.6 cars is if you make it enough of an over dog that guys like myself and other front runners build them and win in them

^^^ This x1000.  If you look up my old posts on this topic, I said the same thing.  You'll never get a Fuji apple to be exactly the same as a Gala apple.  Seriously, what are you going to accomplish by making the 1.6 the COTY?  Nothing but a bunch of apples from the upset cart rotting on the ground.  The top runners will build 1.6's and it'll be business as usual, the 99/VVT's will be on here bitching up a storm about their heavy weight and tire wear etc.  The  (few)1.6's will be wagging their tongues or will have their tail between their legs when they find out it was the nut behind the wheel that needed the competition adjustment.  We'll all be bitching about parts we can no longer get for our 25+ year old cars because Mazda stopped making them.  (I've already run into this on some of the hoses and grommets for my car.)

 

Two other comments on this thread:

 

1) It is absolutely possible to espouse a personal opinion that doesn't reflect your opinion as part of a committee.  Look at what I wrote above.  That may not be my personal interest opinion, but if I were on the SMAC it would be my expressed opinion because I believe it is what is best for the class, even though it isn't best for me (as a 1.6 owner/driver).

 

2) I really hate when people say that 1.6's can run lap times with other cars.  Anyone who's raced (especially out of class cars) knows that lap time doesn't equal raceability.  It's much harder to race a car that is fast in the corners and slow on the straights than vice-versa.  If we were time trialing, sure, but we aren't.

[Todd Green]

What did you figure your driver weight had to be to make minimum?

 

I hope people realize that the minimum weight for a PTE Miata is 2182 (with driver) and we make it easily in our junker E3 car.  In fact we may need to add ballast this year because our heaviest driver is newly single again and so lost 25+ lbs.  Heh.

 

Still has glass (no lexan), OEM hardtop, stock battery, head lights, stock body panels etc.  Though, the cage was built light, but of course GCR/CCR legal and safe (i.e. no rear x-bars, petty bar), pulled extra stuff like radiator fans, misc brackets, emissions junk, wheels are  2lbs/ea lighter, blah blah.  I'd love to see the aneurisms  here if people found out that was the min weight for SM next year.   SM currently allows you to be 200+ lbs and still make weight (probably more like 225.).  That's pretty darn reasonable.

[OctaneNation]

My legal today intake temp at filter is below 100* F. A coupe weeks ago when at the track from memory for practice and qualifying the temp was 90* ish. Someone else drove the car during the race with no feed back. Will report back after next weekends double at the Farm. I have written torque letters in the past to no avail, thank you for your input. I don't write letters anymore. My car today has more talent than the owner/driver.

 

David Dewhurst

Do you have any pics of your intake?

[Bench Racer]

Data at the extreme end of statistics is usually thrown out especially when it's not backed up.

 

So after all the hot air being expended, where do we stand?  

 

Are we any closer to getting folks with 1.6s to write letters?  What will those letters include?

 

 

Legal cooler than under hood air intake data has been posted. I kind of thought someone would questioned my process for getting more ambient air to the filter. Duh, it's inexpensive and one could do it simply for their personal test. Oh well, on to other things.  Letter, not so sure, my feelings get hurt rather easily.

 

Investigating use of the manual 6 speed (tech info from Rich Powers), the input from Jim Drago ( Jim did a positive stroke about the 6 speed for which I don't remember his words) with his STL implementation trial and reading stuff/investigating it seems as tho street and race drivers using the MiataRoadster true short shifter (fulcrum point moved higher) see a vast improvement and forget the issues of arriving in the wrong gear. Have feelers out for more info on the 6 speed shift improvements. Jim, may take you up on your offer to borrow the 6 speed. Might need to pry Loshak away from his TA2 car to get a test completed.

 

For a 1.6re resting on the grid wall above is one improvement for the 1.6.

 

Current focus is on the manual 6 speed even if it's a stretch to the rules.

 

The SMAC responded to Kuch and all 1.6er's please step forward and be involved.   Separate class not required for the many reasons all ready posted. 

 

Letters, not so sure, my feelings get hurt rather easily. 

 

 

 

[Blake Thompson]

 

Current focus is on the manual 6 speed even if it's a stretch to the rules.

 

 

How is that a stretch?  It's blatantly illegal for spec.

[stephanieandersen]

  Though, the cage was built light, but of course GCR/CCR legal and safe (i.e. no rear x-bars, petty bar), 

 

An SM legal cage with no Petty bars would require all of the door guts to stay intact. 

 

edit:  nevermind my comment, confused with NASCAR bars, derp

[ECOBRAP]

Ok...I watched this a half dozen times now and very informative! But not about any parity differences( I see very little), Sometimes what you think you see is nothing close to what is really happening   

 

Matt, I have to agree with Ron about the video. Everything I see is related to racing lines and how the car is being navigated off the corner. Not saying you are wrong about the torque, just that thus video doesn't demonstrate it to me. Have you driven a 99 in competition yet? If not, it is possible that you are doing so well in the 1.6 precisely because its characteristics suit your style. You may not like the trade offs for that torque.

 

I think that the video is painfully obvious, so the fact that you two don't see it means I must be delusional... Ron I was telling you about my eye twitch last weekend maybe I really am going nuts

 

Very clear that in the first clip I am accelerating ahead in 2nd gear (probably a similar exit speed, but I should be going slightly faster because I started accelerating at an earlier point in time simply due to being farther ahead on track. The time gap should stay the same, but the distance between us changes based on speed, like I said we all know this. A one second gap at low speed is a couple car lengths, at high speed it could be 50 yards). By 3rd gear we are going the same speed, and 4th he is going faster. This is the complete opposite of what should be happening, and has nothing to do with a draft as I prove in the second clip when it barely makes any noticeable difference for me. Joey Jordan was following me for the first few laps in a strong 1.6, and I have that video of the spring effect working as it should (low speed high acceleration the gap increases quickly, high speed low acceleration the gap increases marginally). But like you all said, these are all selective data points (even though I saw the same thing every lap, and in three other locations on track), it looks like I am giving off the vibe that I am whining when I am just trying to provide some meaningful data, I will upload the full video to let you make your own decisions. The 1.6 is faster in some areas, but IMO these advantages cannot offset torque. Lap times might be the same, but the only way to win a race in a 1.6 is to start on pole and walk away, or wait for leaders to make mistakes. This is why I usually just ride people's bumpers so that they check their mirrors too much and make a mistake.

 

I have driven Ron's '99, and by my 3rd session I had adapted and was setting decent times. Good chance I won't show up to Laguna with a 1.6 next month (not with that uphill cliff of a back straight!) so that might be a good test to see if I am any more competitive in a 1.8. Who knows, I might be slower

 

 

edit: just remembered that at Buttonwillow the weekend before, I did not see that same difference between my car and the NB's I was battling with, was almost identical acceleration. Now I am confused

[Bench Racer]

How is that a stretch?  It's blatantly illegal for spec.

If you were to back up and re-read a previous post form me to you, you would have opened a suggested thought/post to Kuch from RWP80000 with a thought/included data file that the 6 speed transmission might be a good update for the 1.6. Just attempting to follow through a bit after Jim Drago included his NOT SO GOOD experience with a 6 speed in his STL car. Because it's not a current rule, it'd be a stretch. 

[Bench Racer]

Do you have any pics of your intake?

No, but could and snail mail.

 

You know what happens when a message is typed and the wrong key is hit, SHIT, gone. Pm me you phone number or I'll re type this evening.

 

I see someone from the great state of MI is lurking, I'll re type this evening for you both and any others interested. It's simple block the air from passing around the radiator into the engine bay including from radiator to hood leaving an open area between hood and radiator on drivers side for air to flow into the engine bay to the air filter located at master cylinder. Remove the MazdaSpeed air shield in front of radiator if you have one. Attach everything to the ANY RADIATOR is allowed by rule. I have a 55mm Dewey radiator.   
 

[Blake Thompson]

>

If you were to back up and re-read a previous post form me to you, you would have opened a suggested thought/post to Kuch from RWP80000 with a thought/included data file that the 6 speed transmission might be a good update for the 1.6. Just attempting to follow through a bit after Jim Drago included his NOT SO GOOD experience with a 6 speed in his STL car. Because it's not a current rule, it'd be a stretch. 

 

 

No, but could and snail mail.

 

You know what happens when a message is typed and the wrong key is hit, SHIT, gone. Pm me you phone number or I'll re type this evening.
 

 

I can barely follow your train of thought from one message to the next, much less days apart.  The 6 is going to make the parity even further apart.  And then you'll be switching gearing depending on a track.  BLAH.

 

you have that silver thing from SPX?  The one DW sells?  

http://www.advanced-...products_id=235

[Danny Steyn]

In my best Dean Wormer voice...

 

Fat, slow and red headed is no way to go through life son.  

 

You know I luv ya Blake.

 

Tell me you didn't just say this! Spat out my coffee on my keyboard, and Blake I think the class will give you a free-pass if you punt Sager off into the kitty litter in another timezone for that!!!!

[Bench Racer]

I can barely follow your train of thought from one message to the next, much less days apart.  The 6 is going to make the parity even further apart.  And then you'll be switching gearing depending on a track.  BLAH.

 

you have that silver thing from SPX?  The one DW sells?  

http://www.advanced-...products_id=235

Going bakasswards.

 

No I do not have the SPX from Wheeler. I have the silver thing from maybe SD the travels straight to the filter.

 

For the 6 speed manual transmission post from RPW8000, Rich Powers. Open post number 119 on page 6 of thread, Rule Change For 1.6 Intake. Read the post and the attachment at bottom of page.

 

 

 

  

 

[Johnny D]

Here's the line.
https://www.youtube....h?v=bK-Dqj4fHmM

J~