79 replies to this topic

[True North]

Working on the appeal as I write this....Is there anyone out there that has some experience in the appeal process that I could talk to for guidance?

The GCR says:

 

 

8.4.3. Appeal Procedures

A. How to Appeal

The following are requirements to appeal. An Appeal:

1. must be in writing;

2. must specify who is appealing; what decision is being appealed;

the sections of the GCR and/or Supplemental Regulations

which are believed to have been administered inappropriately,

unfairly, or inequitably; all information the appellant wishes the

Court to consider; and the arguments in favor of the Appeal;

3. must be received by the National Office US Government postmarked

or registered with a carrier service such as UPS or

Federal Express or by Express Mail, fax or email within 10 days

after the decision of the SOM or review committee has been

delivered to the appellant;

4. must be accompanied by a fee of $175, payable to SCCA,

Inc. A minimum of $100 of any appeal fee will be retained by

the SCCA. Faxed or emailed Appeals must include a Visa or

MasterCard account number for payment of the fee. Insuffi- cient funds checks or credit card transactions that are rejected

will be grounds for suspension of competition privileges. Any

additional fees charged by the financial institution(s) will be

assessed to the appellant.

5. may be withdrawn by the appellant, by writing the National

Office before a decision is reached. The administrative portion

of the appeal fee may be retained at the discretion of the Court

of Appeals.

[Bruce Wilson]

Dean,

 

just make sure you provide new evidence in any form.  From my understanding the appeals committee cannot overturn a decision based on the same evidence presented to the stewards as that would be second guessing a judgement call made by the stewards.  A new version of the video that was not viewed by the SOM at the time of their decision will do.  All this is from memory, so I suggest you do your research and confirm, as it may have changed since the time I got my information.

 

Good luck, like most others here, and based on what I've seen, I think the stewards were mistaken in their decision.

[Ron Alan]

Dean...if you want to share, what was the specific reason the SOM gave for the penalty? This may be important to a reversal or penalty reduction.

[True North]

Dean...if you want to share, what was the specific reason the SOM gave for the penalty? This may be important to a reversal or penalty reduction.

Ron, just after they took my license and replaced it with a probational piece of paper, one of the steward's spoke up scolding me and said that I was a very aggressive driver! 

I will check today what is written down but I think that was their reasoning.

[Bench Racer]

8.4.3. Appeal Procedures
A. How to Appeal
The following are requirements to appeal. An Appeal:
1. must be in writing;
2. must specify who is appealing; what decision is being appealed;
the sections of the GCR and/or Supplemental Regulations
which are believed to have been administered inappropriately,
unfairly, or inequitably; all information the appellant wishes the
Court to consider; and the arguments in favor of the Appeal;

Did this one time and used a guy by the name of Ken Nesbit from the productionracing site. Ken IIRC is from the DC area and fosters folks through SCCA protest/appeal issues. Contact through the "members" tab of the production racing site, Im sure there are folks from this site could put you in touch by phone with him, Mike Collins maybe. 

 

Whatever the issue your appealing rather than writing a story, they should have used written words from the GCR? You should use written words from the GCR.

 

Example, the passing driver plowed into the side of my car. It would be my understanding they should have used words from GCR section, Rules Of The Road, On Course Driver Conduct to describe. On the other hand you should use words from Rules Of The Road, On Course Driver Conduct, A through D. to respond.  

 

Others, thoughts.

[Terry Hanushek]

David

 

Did this one time and used a guy by the name of Ken Nesbit from the productionracing site. Ken IIRC is from the DC area and fosters folks through SCCA protest/appeal issues. 

 

You may be thinking of Ken's 'brother' John Nesbitt who is a steward in the DC Region.    He has written several pieces to help drivers work within the GCR including The Portable Driver's Advisor .  John has a section in his Driver's Advisor which addresses  the mechanics of appeals.  He probably is not available for direct advice because is currently a member of the national Court of Appeals.

 

Terry

[Caveman-kwebb99]

It caused and accident but there was not really bad judgemment or disregard to comepitors whoever hit who could have checked up rather than being in the right and innitiating contact. Like Jim says its better to not have a wrecked up car then being right and having a wrecked up car. Have made far worse moves then that and my competitors have always been gracious after a cool down period. But I have always expressed sincere feelings or remorse as I don't ever want to hit my competitors or make them feel mistrust for me on the track. The most important thing in racing is mutual respect and knowing you can trust each other at 10/10ths. We all understand that mistakes happen, I remember Danny quiting the cota race after hitting someone with a low percent pass or Jim doing the same at runnoffs putting joey off and hurting joeys car. It's all about integrity!

You sir have an extra measure of integrity posting this video and asking for help.

You are exactly the person I want to race with and against!!!

[Bench Racer]

Thank you Terry.

[KW78]

 

Working on the appeal as I write this....Is there anyone out there that has some experience in the appeal process that I could talk to for guidance?

 

 

 

Well, instead of writing 10 pages of anecdotes to illustrate my point, I will just say this.  I have said in the past you can't take seriously the SCCA competition regulation structure because it is so flawed , and you are entering into one of the areas that will illustrate the situation.

 

So, in my opinion, you're wasting your time.  I know good faith makes us all wish it wasn't a waste of time, but it will be.

 

Expect the party line:  You're wrong because we said you're wrong.  That was obvious at the track, and now you're also wrong because you obviously want to make waves despite how clearly the trackside stewards explained that you're wrong, and you're wrong for making the Court of Appeals hear you're case, so we have decided to triple the penalty.   Thanks for playing.

 

As always just my .02

[john mueller]

Ron, just after they took my license and replaced it with a probational piece of paper, one of the steward's spoke up scolding me and said that I was a very aggressive driver! 

I will check today what is written down but I think that was their reasoning.

 

Well it was an aggressive move that was mostly effected by the fact that most if not all the cars around you come from the same stable....  That stable master is, IMO the problem in CalClub SM.  As long as he walks on water there will be a massive lack of objectivity in CalClub SM rulings.  Should be fun if the SM Complicate team decides to show-up at one of their events.  

[True North]

OK, the violation of the GCR section is: 6.11.1.A  because of the following conduct:  Contact causing multiple contacts among other race cars

 

Thank you to all those who posted...I really appreciate the insight, knowledge and wisdom you have imparted on all of us!

[Bench Racer]

Dean, they took your license and gave you a 8 1/2 x 11 yellow piece pf paper that is your license for some number of races, correct. Ask me how I know the paper is yellow and how I know the process. I got dinged for something a bunch of years ago and the day the issue happened as I recall I sat with three SOM and they asked if I had anything to say. I had all ready figured out nothing I said ment anything, therefore I kept my mouth shut and had the Chief SOM sign the yellow license for in my case the next three races.

 

Continue racing 

[Ron Alan]

I agree with Kyle...save your $100 plus dollars and move on.  I also believe what John said is very accurate.

 

And most of all Rob is right on!!! Ding dong Gong!

[powerss]

Well, instead of writing 10 pages of anecdotes to illustrate my point, I will just say this.  I have said in the past you can't take seriously the SCCA competition regulation structure because it is so flawed , and you are entering into one of the areas that will illustrate the situation.

 

So, in my opinion, you're wasting your time.  I know good faith makes us all wish it wasn't a waste of time, but it will be.

 

Expect the party line:  You're wrong because we said you're wrong.  That was obvious at the track, and now you're also wrong because you obviously want to make waves despite how clearly the trackside stewards explained that you're wrong, and you're wrong for making the Court of Appeals hear you're case, so we have decided to triple the penalty.   Thanks for playing.

 

As always just my .02

 

 

But Kyle you were ALWAYS guilty.     

[powerss]

Dean

 

Don't give up because it may be futile.  From what I gather the explanation for what you did was less than stellar.  Get that in front of the higher ups so that see the level of quality the SOMs are providing.

 

The new evidence you have is the picture that shows you clearly in 2nd place.  

 

Did you check that the penalty they imposed during the weekend followed the Supps (Start at the rear of the field)?  I cannot understand why you lost your qualifying time for something that happened in the race.  In all the other Majors I have been in the starting positions are completely based on ON track times and not on finishing positions.

 

Steve

[True North]

Well it was an aggressive move that was mostly effected by the fact that most if not all the cars around you come from the same stable....  That stable master is, IMO the problem in CalClub SM.  As long as he walks on water there will be a massive lack of objectivity in CalClub SM rulings.  Should be fun if the SM Complicate team decides to show-up at one of their events.  

John, all the SM guys in Cal Club have always been great to me. What I don't understand is that I was guilty before I drove into impound. I would think that in this day of video most people would hold their judgement until the evidence is presented.  That is why I posted on this forum, I was really wondering if there was something else I could have done differently after I made the decision to make the pass.

[john mueller]

John, all the SM guys in Cal Club have always been great to me. What I don't understand is that I was guilty before I drove into impound. I would think that in this day of video most people would hold their judgement until the evidence is presented.  That is why I posted on this forum, I was really wondering if there was something else I could have done differently after I made the decision to make the pass.

Dean;

All the drivers are nice to be around and the stable master is friendly to your face...  But cross any of 'his drivers' in any way, be it in tech or on the track and you're in the crosshairs of his ire and so the scrutinizing of the Club.  Then there's the fact that several of 'his drivers' are dangerous as hell to be around keeps me pleased that they don't frequent SoCal NASA events (since they left we have not had a major on-track incident in 2+yrs due to poor decision making).

 

Come run with SoCal NASA and you'll more than likely go home with your car in one piece and make a bunch of new friends.

 

http://socal.drivena...-2015-schd.html

[Bad Rusty]

Just saw this video posted (hope it stays up).  Dean, I don't see where you caused this at all.  Last time I checked, a car that get up to the rear quarter of the car in front of it MUST complete a clean pass or back out to avoid contact.  Contact was NOT avoided by the gray car.

 

Maybe Rob is right (I do not know the Political deal in so cal), it's politics, not right and wrong?

 

[john mueller]

 

 

 

 

That start was rubbish...   Should've black flagged the pole sitter for jumping the start.

[new2SoCal]

An unbiased view:

 

Passing car was penalized for GCR 6.11.1A: "Drivers are responsible to avoid physical contact between cars on the race track." The question then becomes who can avoid contact, if at all.

 

Passing car video 6:01, passing driver is 1 car width wide of lead black car and can be seen turning hard left to get back in line. Still photo shows passing car is not clear of car being passed. The bumper of the car being passed is about at the a-pillar of the passing car. 

 

The car being passed likely followed the black car deep into the corner under braking and has cars to his inside. Can't check up because he is already decelerating/turning, can't turn to the inside because of other cars. If he could, the chain reaction occurs anyways.