411 replies to this topic

[Caveman-kwebb99]

For or against what Ralph? The 2mm+ for 94-97 and 25+ for 01?

[38bfast]

For or against what Ralph? The 2mm+ for 94-97 and 25+ for 01?

1.6 enhancements.

[Steve Scheifler]

Perhaps the lack of letters is due to the lack of facts about the proposed options. How will these engines respond to each change? Without that, how can the average person be expected to make an informed choice? We've heard that there has been private testing of various options, and surely there is some relevant information from IT and other classes. What are the likely benefits, drawback and costs?

Barring actual test results, can we all agree on a few basics and generalities?
- There is no one magic bullet to give the 1.6 anywhere near the toque that the 1.8s have
- Things which might improve toque will generally also add power above 6800 RPM where it is perceived that the 1.6 does not need help
- Weight is a better proxy/correction than restrictor plates for low end torque
- Restrictor plates are a better proxy/correction than weight for high RPM power
- Changes that allow an engine to breath more freely tend to improve high RPM power more than peak torque
- Changes that improve thermal efficiency tend to help lower RPM power most IF the engine is flow-limited

Given the above, it would not seem logical to ask for something like a header over increased compression. Likewise, it would not be logical to increase compression then add weight. The best way to bring the cars closer overall would be to give the 1.6 more compression first, and if it still can't compete at lower RPM then add custom-spec'd cams aimed at torque. (back in the day it was called a slalom grind). Then, if the cams can't be designed to limit the gains at high RPM, add a restrictor plate OR better yet, open up the 1.8s just a bit to get back a little on top. The bottom line is that it's really difficult to increase just torque, but if you do things that at least favor torque then you can offset the top-end gains by opening up the 1.8s.

Mr. Drago, you must have plenty of data on the 1.8s with various restrictor plates, share with us the power curves for the same engine tuned to the current plate and one a few mm larger so we can see exactly where the gains/losses are.

Unfortunately I suspect that a lot of 1.6 owners would not spend the money to shave the head for more compression unless the engine is coming apart anyway, but those that did could easily do the cam switch while they're at it. Of course a reliable supply of affordable and accurately ground cams would be essential.

[KW78]

Well from my point of view, the 1.6's don't need any help.  I realize that may be an unpopular point of view with some, but EVERY TRACK RECORD IN COLORADO IS HELD BY A 1.6... 

 

Is it because of high altitude combined with with the highest compression ratio in the class?  And the lightest car? 

 

But that is not my point.

 

What are the complaints?  Not enough torque below 5500?  Heat soaks and pulls timing so it is hard to race? 

 

Add in MIKE COLLINS FOR PRESIDENT...  IE Yes lets make this class go faster damn it!  And help reduce the drama in and out of tech.....

 

Add torque without more power - IE different torque multiplication....  4.44 gears - pretty easy 3.2% added torque without more HP..

 

Not enough area under the curve as someone said?  Move the "envelope" up the curve.  Couple this problem with an ECM strategy that pulls timing?   Here's a solution for about 2 to 3 tires worth of effort - MEGASQUIRT plug and play.

 

Can't race under 5500 - stop racing there....   Bump the rev limiter (see MEGASQUIRT) and downshift!  Leave the rest of the prep the same for the 1.6.

 

But, as I said, the 1.6 track records still reign here.... 

 

My .02

Kyle

[Ron Alan]

You didn't look hard enough, we raced a double at Mid Ohio.  IT Spectacular
 
It wouldn't take a lot just a bone or two.  Your SMAC killed us, No more development left on the 1.6, and 99 already the overdog and now the VVT.  You got the 99 drivers starting to sound like the 1.6 guys complaining  about the VVT cars.

Before the 9 penalties handed out at the 2014 Runoffs...anyone notice the years of the top 3 finishing cars? You better believe the 99 car drivers are worried and paying attention

[LarryKing]

 

I realize that may be an unpopular point of view with some, but EVERY TRACK RECORD IN COLORADO IS HELD BY A 1.6...

 

Out of curiousity what were the SM car counts when those records were set? More than six, less than ten?

 

 

For those who mention how a 1.6 briefly held the track record at Mid-Ohio, have you ever wondered what would happen if that same driver was in a '99?

 

Seems like everyone who switches from a 1.6 to a '99 is suddenly 2 seconds faster "because it fits my driving style better."

[Brian129]

I think the idea of headers, cams, and restrictor plate sounds most plausible. 

 

The comp ratio bump would require mass engine rebuilds,  which will gain resistance.

same with the pistons. 

The cam idea seems to make the most sense as you can tune the power under the curve the best with cam profile and timing. 

the header would give some gain, but could also be in place to equalize the variations in stock headers, and solve the issues with cracking old parts.

 

putting these two together would open up flow significantly,  and like give the already top end power heavy 1.6's a bigger gain. 

platting would then pull top end out, and cause for less need for flow matched perfect sets, and cut the top end gap. 

 

it would take some research,  but this is all simple bolt on parts, that have positive influences.  

So a 1.6 has to run a plate?  big deal, as long as its not too restrictive. 

[Sean - MiataCage]

This is getting so over engineered it's almost comical.  Add some more weight to the 99-00's and call it good.  Weight is the only thing that will equalize the torque off the corner.  If the cars with better torque have to accelerate a higher mass then you have your equalization.  I realize since the 99-00 is the vocal majority right now there is a better chance of getting Howard Stern elected for President, but why does this need to be so complicated?  

 

Remember before STR's and Compression and Hoosiers that the 99/00 weighed 2450 and the equalization of each car was whole lot closer.  Then personal agenda's got in the way and the 99/00 became the car to have.  Now the VVT car is the car to have.  Your car may be the car to have today, but until we start looking at fixing the CLASS not just the car you want fixed then it will always be the car of the year syndrome.

 

1.6L - 2300

1.8L - 2460

VVT - 2475

 

Test it, modify it and move one with racing.  Done and Done.

 

Stern/Quivers in 2016!

[LarryKing]

Baba Booey

[pat slattery]

Sounds like a good inexpensive solution Sean,

[Blake Clements]

Did I mention the only race I won last year was in a 1.6?

[Mike Collins]

OUT LOUD AGAIN!!!

 

The 1.6 DOES NOT need help...The only problem with the 1.6 is the expense and prep required to make it go fast every weekend....

 

The '99 is the Ron Popiel of racing..."Set it and Forget it"...  The 1.6 needs tons of fine tuning....

[Jason J Ball]

The only problem with the 1.6 is the expense and prep required to make it go fast every weekend....

 

The 1.6 needs tons of fine tuning....

 

No, this is exactly why the 1.6L NEEDS Help! 

[Diller]

I just bought a 1.6 for a commuter car and while doing some research, it seems that this car started life as an automatic. As I am told, the automatic cars came with lower compression but different cam profiles to move the torque peak lower to compensate for the auto gearbox. 

 

Not to keep adding fuel to the already complex fire but, if the statement above is true, has anybody tested the automatic cams on the higher CR engines? 

[MPR22]

Out of curiousity what were the SM car counts when those records were set? More than six, less than ten?

 

 

For those who mention how a 1.6 briefly held the track record at Mid-Ohio, have you ever wondered what would happen if that same driver was in a '99?

 

Seems like everyone who switches from a 1.6 to a '99 is suddenly 2 seconds faster "because it fits my driving style better."

Absurd statements like this draw my attention.  

In Colorado they have some outstanding 99's some of the fastest I have seen in the country and I have raced with Drago, Stearns, Berry Balanos, Steyn, Haldeman, Reynolds, Collins...... I think those guys have some top prep cars and two of the cars I raced there were every bit there equal.  They may not have deep fields but the pointy end was plenty fast.

 

John Mueller is the only one he claims he dropped 2 seconds switching from a 1.6 to a 99, but somehow you translate that into everyone.  

 

Give me your address I'll send you one of my 99's for the season and see if you suddenly start winning.  Or racing for that matter.  

 

Three squeaky fudging wheels are getting the grease.  I assume it is just shut you all up but it is not for the betterment of the class.  It is absurd to make major rules modifications with zero testing, ie same driver, same track, same day.......

 

Before anyone cries i am biased because I have a 99 or a VVT, the answer is yup and I have a 1.6.  So go ahead and make it an overdog, i will spend the money, and so will the guys winning national championships and what has anyone accomplished but to temporarily drive the cost of racing up yet again.  

[Blake Clements]

I rarely agree with Ross because fundamentally he likes Burnt Orange, but in this case I agree.

[john mueller]

No way john a 1.6 cannot win at road america so we aren't even close...

 

I don't care about ONE track, neither should you.

[MPR22]

We may wear different clothes but fundamentally we bleed the same color blood. 

I rarely agree with Ross because fundamentally he likes Burnt Orange, but in this case I agree.

[steveracer]

Hey Ross, Since I sold my 1.6, I'll be happy to keep your '99 for a season if you like.

 

I'll even come get it.

[john mueller]

Seems like everyone who switches from a 1.6 to a '99 is suddenly 2 seconds faster "because it fits my driving style better."

 

I never said everyone.  I said ME.  Lots of folks like and are faster with tossing the NA cars to the edge over driving the NB to the edge.  I don't have the talent to pull the 1.6 back before it falls off the cliff...  Those who can will carve the shit out of the field in slightly overdog 1.6.