411 replies to this topic

[pat slattery]

Most, now that they built a 99 are not going to own up to being faster than the 1.6, why would they, do they want to get a weight penalty. It is there driving ability they will say.    I have seen it first hand, guys we beat on a regular basis, get the 99 can now they are fast. 

 

As far as squeaky wheels getting the grease, the 1.6 has not had anything that the 99's  have had for 4 years or more, just more weight

[pat slattery]

To late I already asked Ross for it

[john mueller]

No, this is exactly why the 1.6L NEEDS Help! 

 

The problem is there are folks with the prep regimen and the funds to make their 1.6 the badass of the event and will kick EVERYONES ass.  Mr. Collins is 1,002% spot on.

[LarryKing]

 

Three squeaky fudging wheels are getting the grease.

 

From the guy that stamped his feet, held his breath and vowed to sell ALL his cars and leave the class if he didn't get his way on cylinder heads.

 

With regards to the 2 second faster in a '99 - that's my observation from racing with other one-sixers until they bought a NB and ran away from me.

 

I'm sure there are very good drivers and well prepped cars in Colorado - still, the odds are ever in your favor to set a track record among 10 drivers vs. 40 drivers

[MPR22]

From the guy that stamped his feet, held his breath and vowed to sell ALL his cars and leave the class if he didn't get his way on cylinder heads.

 

With regards to the 2 second faster in a '99 - that's my observation from racing with other one-sixers until they bought a NB and ran away from me.

 

I'm sure there are very good drivers and well prepped cars in Colorado - still, the odds are ever in your favor to set a track record among 10 drivers vs. 40 drivers

I got my way on the cylinder heads.  So I'm good. 

[MPR22]

Most, now that they built a 99 are not going to own up to being faster than the 1.6, why would they, do they want to get a weight penalty. It is there driving ability they will say.    I have seen it first hand, guys we beat on a regular basis, get the 99 can now they are fast. 

 

As far as squeaky wheels getting the grease, the 1.6 has not had anything that the 99's  have had for 4 years or more, just more weight

I'm about 0.3 faster in my NBs, but I never had a full balls to the wall prep 1.6 either.  If the rules change to compression and overbore.... then I will be happy spend the money to make the 1.6 top prep and go beat all my friends until they fix the rules.   

 

The suggested list of mods are way over the top to achieve parity.  

 

 

I would start with weight adjustments back to the 2275 number for the 1.6 and see how that plays out.  There is a lot more to winning a 40 minute race than torque under 5500 rpm.  Lighten the 1.6 up a bit and see if it outlasts the 1.8s late in the race.  That happens regularly at TWS, especially on Sundays when the track is dirty and greasy.  

[Jim Drago]

From the guy that stamped his feet, held his breath and vowed to sell ALL his cars and leave the class if he didn't get his way on cylinder heads.

 

With regards to the 2 second faster in a '99 - that's my observation from racing with other one-sixers until they bought a NB and ran away from me.

 

I'm sure there are very good drivers and well prepped cars in Colorado - still, the odds are ever in your favor to set a track record among 10 drivers vs. 40 drivers

 

First, I love the Ross and Vetter fued

 

The best comparison I can give with regards to someone we both know..  The number 11 car was convinced that he was beat at Mid O NASA Champs due to Tq and 99 advantage of barney.. The next year the 11 was new and revamped with glass headlamps.. Same results..

 

Buras car went the same route, but skipped right to the VVT.. still has not equalled the results achieved in 1.6 car?

 

Maybe, just maybe.. really good drivers in really good 1.6 cars don't do any better in really good NB cars?  

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

Absurd statements like this draw my attention.  
In Colorado they have some outstanding 99's some of the fastest I have seen in the country and I have raced with Drago, Stearns, Berry Balanos, Steyn, Haldeman, Reynolds, Collins...... I think those guys have some top prep cars and two of the cars I raced there were every bit there equal.  They may not have deep fields but the pointy end was plenty fast.
 
John Mueller is the only one he claims he dropped 2 seconds switching from a 1.6 to a 99, but somehow you translate that into everyone.  
 
Give me your address I'll send you one of my 99's for the season and see if you suddenly start winning.  Or racing for that matter.  
 
Three squeaky fudging wheels are getting the grease.  I assume it is just shut you all up but it is not for the betterment of the class.  It is absurd to make major rules modifications with zero testing, ie same driver, same track, same day.......
 
Before anyone cries i am biased because I have a 99 or a VVT, the answer is yup and I have a 1.6.  So go ahead and make it an overdog, i will spend the money, and so will the guys winning national championships and what has anyone accomplished but to temporarily drive the cost of racing up yet again.

Ok you have all three model cars,then let me ask you two question.

1 ) what year do you run all the time ?
2 ) why do you run that year and not the 1.6 ( I'm assuming you don't run the 1.6 ) ?

[38bfast]

The Old Number 11 1.6 car is for sale. 

[KW78]

Absurd statements like this draw my attention.  

In Colorado they have some outstanding 99's some of the fastest I have seen in the country and I have raced with Drago, Stearns, Berry Balanos, Steyn, Haldeman, Reynolds, Collins...... I think those guys have some top prep cars and two of the cars I raced there were every bit there equal.  They may not have deep fields but the pointy end was plenty fast.

 

John Mueller is the only one he claims he dropped 2 seconds switching from a 1.6 to a 99, but somehow you translate that into everyone.  

 

Give me your address I'll send you one of my 99's for the season and see if you suddenly start winning.  Or racing for that matter.  

 

Three squeaky fudging wheels are getting the grease.  I assume it is just shut you all up but it is not for the betterment of the class.  It is absurd to make major rules modifications with zero testing, ie same driver, same track, same day.......

 

Before anyone cries i am biased because I have a 99 or a VVT, the answer is yup and I have a 1.6.  So go ahead and make it an overdog, i will spend the money, and so will the guys winning national championships and what has anyone accomplished but to temporarily drive the cost of racing up yet again.  

 

Thanks for the vote of confidence...   The back story is we had a pair of racers that have quit racing, that could afford to have 1 each of the SM's prepped to the max with pro motors, standing weekly dyno time, standing weekly trackside garage for test days, and the scientific method applied to racing.  Money and time were abundant, every racer's ideal race effort.  In the end, the NA8 was enough off the pace to just run enduros, and the other 2 were often seen in the same tenth on test days.   Interesting to watch that.  Key is, you have to make weight in the 1.6, not that easy to do..

 

From the guy that stamped his feet, held his breath and vowed to sell ALL his cars and leave the class if he didn't get his way on cylinder heads.

 

With regards to the 2 second faster in a '99 - that's my observation from racing with other one-sixers until they bought a NB and ran away from me.

 

I'm sure there are very good drivers and well prepped cars in Colorado - still, the odds are ever in your favor to set a track record among 10 drivers vs. 40 drivers

 

Because in a small field, you have most of the race to circulate without back marker interference??? 

This is getting so over engineered it's almost comical. 

 

Yup.  If I have followed the thread correctly, 1.6's  are getting cams, header, computer, gears, and then a restrictor plate... got it... 

 

Maybe it is time to just let 89-04 cars all update/backdate at will for 2015 and beyond.  Everyone will have the same pile of parts to pull from for all cars that way....

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

Anyone that has diff.models cars can answer my question just be 100% truthful.

I'm tired of hearing about the cost of building,level of prep,and constant tuning of a 1.6 to keep it at the front of the field. Some of the guys in our class have very deep pockets and would spend anything to win. So that tells me that we don't have parity in this class and the NA cars along with 94-97 have no advantage of winning at the majors level. If they did there would be a lot more in the top ten then we have now.

Sorry but the majority in this class have shown that by moving onto the NB models. Yes building a 1.6 cost more because you have to find the best flowing parts but once you have them you don't have to change them. So once that expense is gone what do you have let,you have tuning and setup and that doesn't cost that much. So until we can show up at any track with any year car and have a chance win we don't have parity !

Ps I'm talking about top level prepped cars not mid back cars.

[LarryKing]

 

we both know.. The number 11 car was convinced that he was beat at Mid O NASA Champs due to Tq and 99 advantage of barney.. The next year the 11 was new and revamped with glass headlamps.. Same results..

 

We both also know that is an oversimplification of what happen during the 2008 race.

[Jason J Ball]

The problem is there are folks with the prep regimen and the funds to make their 1.6 the badass of the event and will kick EVERYONES ass.  Mr. Collins is 1,002% spot on.

 

John,

 

Parity does not just include HP and TQ, its the level of prep that is the biggest roadblock to most 1.6L guys. You cannot just set it and forget it with a 1.6 like Mr. Collins was advocating the 99+ can do. It takes orders of magnitude more funds to make a 1.6 get and stay at the front (driver excluded). 

[Jim Drago]

We both also know that is an oversimplification of what happen during the 2008 race.

ok the whole 08 season?  Just pointing out the results were no better, if anything they were worse

[chris haldeman]

Hey Ross, Since I sold my 1.6, I'll be happy to keep your '99 for a season if you like.

I'll even come get it.

You can have one of them at the end of this coming weekend. Very close too the same deal we already have

[ECOBRAP]

The 1.6 is the issue here so we should make the adjustment, not the 1.8's. Let us drop to 2275-2285lbs for 2015.

 

For reference, I drove a '99 for the first time last month at Laguna Seca. It was my first day driving an NB and I was 7/10ths quicker than my 1.6. I know there are a lot of variables at play here, but long story short they even out.

[MPR22]

Ok you have all three model cars,then let me ask you two question.

1 ) what year do you run all the time ?
2 ) why do you run that year and not the 1.6 ( I'm assuming you don't run the 1.6 ) ?

I'm about 0.3 faster in my NBs, but I never had a full balls to the wall prep 1.6 either.

 

I run what car I think will give me the best advantage based on the track or track conditions.  If i were a really good driver this might actually work for me, however I am just ok and the changes in driving styles between cars has me spending too much time chasing setup or dialing out diver errors to be effective with the tactic.  I honestly believe at MSRH I could place the same position in any of the three cars.  I think the 99 has an advantage over the VVT at TWS and Road America.  If I get my 1.6 up to speed I might be completely happy with that car not sure.  To your point about cost its not worth the cost of trying to get it ready at the current weight.  If we were down to about 2375 I would definitely look to put it together for certain tracks.  

 

So what I am saying is we are not very far off and one car has an advantage over another at certain tracks.  Maybe a car fits another drivers style over another, the go karters can absolutely fly in the 1.6's.  One of the problems with my weight solution is peoples personal ballast might not work with the lower weight.  Before you say, just raise the NB's up, there will be a tipping point the heavier these cars get, the cars will go off too much on long runs. 

 

One of the suggestions that I absolutely abhor, is to overdog the 1.6 so we can un-restrict the 1.8s.  This is about as bad an idea that has ever been presented.  This will put the emphasis on air flow again and we are already crying about what it costs to parts bin match the intakes and exhausts on the 1.6's.  Opening this can of worms will be horrible for the class. The 99s' set it and forget it nature is very instrumental to why the races are so close today.  Nobody has to spend mega bucks getting it within 2/3 of the top prep cars in the country.  To do the same to the 1.6 would be a small fortune and the finicky nature of the AFM's keep the cheese moving. To put the NBs in a similar situation would give the big boys with big money a big advantage over most of the drivers that want to race them but not spend with them. 

[pat slattery]

The 1.6 is the issue here so we should make the adjustment, not the 1.8's. Let us drop to 2275-2285lbs for 2015.

 

For reference, I drove a '99 for the first time last month at Laguna Seca. It was my first day driving an NB and I was 7/10ths quicker than my 1.6. I know there are a lot of variables at play here, but long story short they even out.

These 99 guys just want us to think it's all about there driving

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

I'm about 0.3 faster in my NBs, but I never had a full balls to the wall prep 1.6 either.
 
I run what car I think will give me the best advantage based on the track or track conditions.  If i were a really good driver this might actually work for me, however I am just ok and the changes in driving styles between cars has me spending too much time chasing setup or dialing out diver errors to be effective with the tactic.  I honestly believe at MSRH I could place the same position in any of the three cars.  I think the 99 has an advantage over the VVT at TWS and Road America.  If I get my 1.6 up to speed I might be completely happy with that car not sure.  To your point about cost its not worth the cost of trying to get it ready at the current weight.  If we were down to about 2375 I would definitely look to put it together for certain tracks.  
 
So what I am saying is we are not very far off and one car has an advantage over another at certain tracks.  Maybe a car fits another drivers style over another, the go karters can absolutely fly in the 1.6's.  One of the problems with my weight solution is peoples personal ballast might not work with the lower weight.  Before you say, just raise the NB's up, there will be a tipping point the heavier these cars get, the cars will go off too much on long runs. 
 
One of the suggestions that I absolutely abhor, is to overdog the 1.6 so we can un-restrict the 1.8s.  This is about as bad an idea that has ever been presented.  This will put the emphasis on air flow again and we are already crying about what it costs to parts bin match the intakes and exhausts on the 1.6's.  Opening this can of worms will be horrible for the class. The 99s' set it and forget it nature is very instrumental to why the races are so close today.  Nobody has to spend mega bucks getting it within 2/3 of the top prep cars in the country.  To do the same to the 1.6 would be a small fortune and the finicky nature of the AFM's keep the cheese moving. To put the NBs in a similar situation would give the big boys with big money a big advantage over most of the drivers that want to race them but not spend with them. 

Thanks for being honest and I agree with you the 1.6 only needs a little help and also needs help with heat soaking and that's all where asking for.

[ECOBRAP]

Thanks for being honest and I agree with you the 1.6 only needs a little help and also needs help with heat soaking and that's all where asking for.

 

Agreed. Keep it simple, allow the 1.6 to drop some weight and use turn signal intakes to help cool the engine bay.