270 replies to this topic

[davew]

I had this very same discussion a few days ago, over cocktails.

 

We do many laps every day. Between practice, qualify and racing we probably do 60 laps on average. But we only get one start per day. maybe 2 with certain circumstances. The lack of repetitions make starts an issue for the novice.

 

Most laps are pretty much the same. You brake at the same point, turn the same amount and the track never changes its shape. Every start is different. Early green versus late green. Left lane versus right lane. Front row versus mid pack versus back row. Lots of variables and only a single shot to figure it out.

 

My theory is that starts are mostly about luck and things you can not control. Like what the guy 3 rows in front of you does. Experience helps, but the best advise is to eliminate as many of those things you can not control (other cars) and qualify better. keep you eyes up and don't fixate on the car in front of you. Remember to breathe.

 

Having a radio is a big help for midpack starts as long as you have an experienced spotter who can not only call the green, but also help you navigate in traffic.

 

When I was racing 12-15 times a year, I always seemed to have good starts. Now that I only do 5-6 races a year, my starts have gone down hill. But my passing has gotten better    Go figure.

dave

[Bench Racer]

How do I work on starting better? Or what advice do you have for managing the start to minimize losses, hold position, or take advantage of others mistakes?

Identify/make a list your start issues and post them. The coach will return.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BKJ]

Todd ... my son is 15 and will start racing this year in SM with me. He has been very successful racing go karts (mostly oval but some road courses as well). He is also very fast and consistent on iRacing ... which tells me he can learn the tracks and develop the muscle memory required to be repeatable.  What are the 3 things you would tell him to focus on for the first year? How would you tell him to prepare so he can be safe and successful?

 

BKJ

[MPR22]

Todd ... my son is 15 and will start racing this year in SM with me. He has been very successful racing go karts (mostly oval but some road courses as well). He is also very fast and consistent on iRacing ... which tells me he can learn the tracks and develop the muscle memory required to be repeatable. What are the 3 things you would tell him to focus on for the first year? How would you tell him to prepare so he can be safe and successful?

BKJ

1. Develop driver, then car.
2. Don't get frustrated that old slow guys with big motors are in his way early.
3. Don't hit old slow guys with big motors because they are in his way.

Once he starts out qualifying a majority of the field then work on car. Lots of race craft to be learned passing old guys with fast cars.

Todd will give you a real pros answer, I'm just lobbying to not get hit by new guys coming out of karts.

[Ron Alan]

Todd ... my son is 15 and will start racing this year in SM with me. He has been very successful racing go karts (mostly oval but some road courses as well). He is also very fast and consistent on iRacing ... which tells me he can learn the tracks and develop the muscle memory required to be repeatable.  What are the 3 things you would tell him to focus on for the first year? How would you tell him to prepare so he can be safe and successful?

 

BKJ

Haha...what Michael said!!

 

And my 2 cents from going through this and watching many others in past and present!  Being conservative would be and understatement. There are enough adults out there that dont always make good decisions in the heat of the battle. It seems about half of the kids(or newbies for that matter)are to aggressive and over confident in their ability. It only takes one dumb mistake when starting to cement in a reputation that will stay with a young driver for awhile...deserved or not. Being a clean driver that first year or 2 goes a long way to establishing respect within the community...especially if you are running toward the front. This could be from the choices made in passing attempts, actions taken when being passed, and especially decsions made when things happen in front of you. "When in doubt, back out" is something that may make or break your career! The chance to race another day or in the next few hours should far out weigh the need to win or finish a couple positions higher. Keeping your foot in the throttle certainly works at times but finding out that sometimes it doesnt SUCKS!  "Patience" would be the best thing your son could live by early in his career! Sorry...back to Todd! 

 

GREAT thread Todd!

[Tom Hampton]

Identify/make a list your start issues and post them. The coach will return.

 

 

I will do that, but it will take some time.  I will have to review my video to see what *I* think my issues are.   I'm finding that I have a VERY bad memory for what happens during a race. 

 

When I came off the track Sunday from the 50 minute race, I couldn't even remember what lap or which turn I'd over-cooked and gone 4-off in.  I knew I'd gone off, and have a strong visual of the recovery and re-entry to the racing surface.  But, it took like 5 minutes to just remember which turn it was.  I honestly thought it was lap 2...turns out it was lap1. 

 

Here's what I remember from the Sunday race start:

 

Track: MSR-Cresson 1.7 CCW.

 

http://www.tomhampto...sson-tx-1-7ccw/

 

 

Start location: The green flag is actually thrown prior to the LAST turn on the track (Big bend), so that turn 1, is the second turn taken under green.  However, the pole starts track-right which is on the OUTSIDE of Big Bend (a left handed high speed sweeper), and has the inside line into turn 1 (a right handed 2 gear cllimbing turn entering a left-right-left twisty section (rattlesnake). 

 

Starting Postion: 15 / 27

 

The line up for the start occured very late in the out-lap.  The 14th position car initially lined up in my spot, and as a result I was late to get into position.  Someone was already to my left, so I couldn't just move over and take the wrong position.  By the time I got into the correct position we were already past tombstone.  I hit the accelerator to jump into my spot just an instant before the green.  I got a good run going into Big bend, but I remember someone either running wide, or having contact and I had to break momentum and run wide to stay clear.  ...My memory is really fuzzy...after this.  

 

I don't clearly remember what happened down the front stretch (or rather I remeber several things that don't make sense and I may be mixing events from different laps).  As I said above, I need to review video before I say much more.  I will edit this post (or post a follow-up with a complete breakdown of the first 5 turns of the start). 

 

However, once we got to turn 1, I DID still have the inside line...and cars were back to 2-by-2.  I'd been told to get into second gear early and stay tight to the car in front---which I did.  I was also told to be prepared to rub the car to my left to hold *my* spot on the track as we continued 2x2 through turn1 and the first left-hander.  I did NOT rub the car to my left (I moved over as he came over), and I DID end up out to the rumblestrip and lost a position or two as a result. 

 

So, in short I didn't use all of the advice that I'd been given.  I'm sure some of what I should/could have done are track/situation specific as DaveW states above.  I do have local resources to address the situation specifics (review video, etc).  However, I don't mind sharing here too.  But, some of it is just being in the right mental state, and having the experience to be comfortable with the rubbing and bumping that often occurs in a 2x2 procession of 27 cars through a single-lane chicane on lap1. 

 

My question really centers on that aspect of race starts bolded above.  I get that it will come with experience, but you only get one start per race (hopefully).  Are there ANY ways to do anything to accelerate that process or work on any aspects of it other than real race starts? 

[davew]

Having worked with many karters, both old (Voytek) and young (Bernaki and Raymond) they all seem to have the same tendancy of no patience. They want to win every corner, every straightaway of every lap. It takes a while to beat that mentality out of them.

 

They also tend to be hard on the car. Not just fenders, but brakes and tires and... Eventually they will learn to be fast and save the equipment. 

 

Youngsters also tend to shy away from interaction with the adults. Remind him to become friends with everyone. Leave the texting and social media alone for a few hours. It is amazing how their personality changes, both on and off track, when they spend more time with us old guys.

 

Expect a 2 year learning curve. As they develop patience, yours will be tested.

 

dave

[Ron Alan]

^^^^ Especially the interaction with your fellow drivers!!!!!!!  Amazing the reaction difference when there needs to be an off track discussion...and the other driver has shared laughs and food with you already! You are not just that "f**king blue car" to them!

[RazerX]

I will do that, but it will take some time.  I will have to review my video to see what *I* think my issues are.   I'm finding that I have a VERY bad memory for what happens during a race. 

 

When I came off the track Sunday from the 50 minute race, I couldn't even remember what lap or which turn I'd over-cooked and gone 4-off in.  I knew I'd gone off, and have a strong visual of the recovery and re-entry to the racing surface.  But, it took like 5 minutes to just remember which turn it was.  I honestly thought it was lap 2...turns out it was lap1. 

 

Here's what I remember from the Sunday race start:

 

Track: MSR-Cresson 1.7 CCW.

 

http://www.tomhampto...sson-tx-1-7ccw/

 

 

Start location: The green flag is actually thrown prior to the LAST turn on the track (Big bend), so that turn 1, is the second turn taken under green.  However, the pole starts track-right which is on the OUTSIDE of Big Bend (a left handed high speed sweeper), and has the inside line into turn 1 (a right handed 2 gear cllimbing turn entering a left-right-left twisty section (rattlesnake). 

 

Starting Postion: 15 / 27

 

The line up for the start occured very late in the out-lap.  The 14th position car initially lined up in my spot, and as a result I was late to get into position.  Someone was already to my left, so I couldn't just move over and take the wrong position.  By the time I got into the correct position we were already past tombstone.  I hit the accelerator to jump into my spot just an instant before the green.  I got a good run going into Big bend, but I remember someone either running wide, or having contact and I had to break momentum and run wide to stay clear.  ...My memory is really fuzzy...after this.  

 

I don't clearly remember what happened down the front stretch (or rather I remeber several things that don't make sense and I may be mixing events from different laps).  As I said above, I need to review video before I say much more.  I will edit this post (or post a follow-up with a complete breakdown of the first 5 turns of the start). 

 

However, once we got to turn 1, I DID still have the inside line...and cars were back to 2-by-2.  I'd been told to get into second gear early and stay tight to the car in front---which I did.  I was also told to be prepared to rub the car to my left to hold *my* spot on the track as we continued 2x2 through turn1 and the first left-hander.  I did NOT rub the car to my left (I moved over as he came over), and I DID end up out to the rumblestrip and lost a position or two as a result. 

 

So, in short I didn't use all of the advice that I'd been given.  I'm sure some of what I should/could have done are track/situation specific as DaveW states above.  I do have local resources to address the situation specifics (review video, etc).  However, I don't mind sharing here too.  But, some of it is just being in the right mental state, and having the experience to be comfortable with the rubbing and bumping that often occurs in a 2x2 procession of 27 cars through a single-lane chicane on lap1. 

 

My question really centers on that aspect of race starts bolded above.  I get that it will come with experience, but you only get one start per race (hopefully).  Are there ANY ways to do anything to accelerate that process or work on any aspects of it other than real race starts? 

 

I find it sad and disturbing that is 'accepted' that you will have contact on the start.  That is expected and you need to do it to maintain your position.  I feel that this is one of reasons our class has a bit of a negative aura. 

[Tom Hampton]

I find it sad and disturbing that is 'accepted' that you will have contact on the start.  That is expected and you need to do it to maintain your position.  I feel that this is one of reasons our class has a bit of a negative aura. 

 

 

I didn't really mean to focus on the contact aspect....more the close quarters aspect...nose-to-tail, side-by-side without loosing positions.  Even doing that cleanly requires mental preparation and skill...which I don't yet possess. 

 

I've started (and finished) 5 races, and I've lost positions (2-5) in all 5 starts.  

[Steve Scheifler]

Identify/make a list your start issues and post them. The coach will return.

I took from his last post that this was a limited engagement and Elvis has now left the building.

[Todd Lamb]

I think we covered the starting thing, but let me approach this from a different angle since you're a very new racer.

 

You've just completed your 5th race ever. If you finished all 5 races, that means you survived 5 starts. Get to 20 and then let's talk about how to better your starts. For now, if you can get through 20 starts without getting involved in a melee before turn one, you've done better than most. Finishing races at this stage will get you the most experience, even if, as Dave said, you fall deeper into the field on starts and get more experience passing them back. The old "you can't win the race in turn 1, but you sure can lose it" applies here.

 

As I mentioned on the previous answer, it's a bit of being at the mercy of everyone else on the starts if you're not up front. The best thing you can do to work on starts between races is to watch your videos and see what worked and what didn't. Also watch other's videos who seem to have it all figured out on starts. You'll notice that the front runners rarely gain or lose more than a spot or two, and mid pack will gain or lose 5 or more spots regularly.

 

I will say this, the most spots lost on a start will be when you hit the rev limiter while everyone else shifts. Be ready for those shift lights because you won't be able to go off sound.

 

 

Ok. Beginners turn. I just completed my 3rd, 4th and 5th races ever.

How do I work on starting better? Or what advice do you have for managing the start to minimize losses, hold position, or take advantage of others mistakes?

Are there ways to work on starts between race events?

[Todd Lamb]

The biggest hurdle in the transition from karts to cars is the suspension. I did a series of articles on this transition for National Kart News a few years ago.

 

Karting is great for learning strategy, wheel to wheel racing, and discipline. He should do very well in SM.

 

Three things:

 

1) observe/learn from others who are willing to help; ask questions

2) think through the weight transfer and what the new-to-him springs and shocks are trying to do...chassis dynamics

3) continue to get seat time in karts if possible - cheap and effective

 

bonus

4) karting is setup intensive, and so is SM...work on the setup just like in karting

 

 

Todd ... my son is 15 and will start racing this year in SM with me. He has been very successful racing go karts (mostly oval but some road courses as well). He is also very fast and consistent on iRacing ... which tells me he can learn the tracks and develop the muscle memory required to be repeatable.  What are the 3 things you would tell him to focus on for the first year? How would you tell him to prepare so he can be safe and successful?

 

BKJ

[Todd Lamb]

This too....bravado doesn't win races....it's a bit of a blanket statement without knowing your son but generally the "young guns" are a little too ambitious and try for the "video game pass" as Johnny O'Connell used to say in the PWC driver meetings.

Haha...what Michael said!!

 

And my 2 cents from going through this and watching many others in past and present!  Being conservative would be and understatement. There are enough adults out there that dont always make good decisions in the heat of the battle. It seems about half of the kids(or newbies for that matter)are to aggressive and over confident in their ability. It only takes one dumb mistake when starting to cement in a reputation that will stay with a young driver for awhile...deserved or not. Being a clean driver that first year or 2 goes a long way to establishing respect within the community...especially if you are running toward the front. This could be from the choices made in passing attempts, actions taken when being passed, and especially decsions made when things happen in front of you. "When in doubt, back out" is something that may make or break your career! The chance to race another day or in the next few hours should far out weigh the need to win or finish a couple positions higher. Keeping your foot in the throttle certainly works at times but finding out that sometimes it doesnt SUCKS!  "Patience" would be the best thing your son could live by early in his career! Sorry...back to Todd! 

 

GREAT thread Todd!

[Todd Lamb]

Ah yes - thank you for bringing this up. I had typed out a response on my phone that addressed this but I got a text that obliterated my reply and I forgot this part of it.....again my recommendation for a new racer.

 

We all have a limited brain capacity. Right now, as you pointed out, you're maxed out on the bare essentials - shifting, braking, traffic, etc all new to you so trying to process even the basics is an overwhelming task.  This is why you can't remember all that happened, and it's all a blur.  You've got a full mental plate just getting to turn 1, let alone worrying about picking up positions. As you gain more experience (my "finish the race" answer) you'll find all of the basics become second nature and you can begin to focus on the strategy and the racecraft. For now, learn the basics and learn them right, until they become your muscle memory and you don't have to think about them anymore, freeing up mental capacity for starts and the other difficult aspects of racing.

 

Side note: the front runners aren't putting much of their brain capacity into driving the car - most of the thought is on strategy and passing. This is due to experience and the driving being second nature.

 

 

 

I will do that, but it will take some time.  I will have to review my video to see what *I* think my issues are.   I'm finding that I have a VERY bad memory for what happens during a race. 

I don't clearly remember what happened down the front stretch (or rather I remeber several things that don't make sense and I may be mixing events from different laps).  As I said above, I need to review video before I say much more.  I will edit this post (or post a follow-up with a complete breakdown of the first 5 turns of the start). 

 

But, some of it is just being in the right mental state, and having the experience to be comfortable with the rubbing and bumping that often occurs in a 2x2 procession of 27 cars through a single-lane chicane on lap1. 

 

 

[Todd Lamb]

Even Elvis came back for an encore!

 

I took from his last post that this was a limited engagement and Elvis has now left the building.

[Tom Hampton]

Even Elvis came back for an encore!

Thanks, Todd.  As everyone has said...awesome thread! 

 

Very generous.

[FTodaro]

Starts

 

I practice relaxation techniques even now. I find that i make better decisions when i am relaxed. I have a routine and i stick with it. Its easier not to miss a shift if your relaxed. 

[CARacer]

At places like Thunderhill between 9 and 10, Thunderhill between 13 and 14, and Laguna Seca between 6 and the Corkscrew, some say to put the car on the most direct line for shorter distance to cover, others say minimize steering input and let the car take the widest arc it can for the least amount of resistance. Besides a lot of testing and data studying, how do you know which of those, or something in between, is fastest?

 

[BKJ]

Thanks for the great advice guys .... I am excited to get to race with my son!