1001 replies to this topic

[LarryKing]

Wrecker, Do they make weight with a 220 lb driver? Save me the trip and tell me what I'm missing. So far I have a manual steering rack and removed all power steering brackets, removed all parking brake mechanisms, removed all airbag sensors, all A/C components, rear brake backing plates. No cool suit, no fire system, no data. What am I missing?

 

My car use to make 2275 before I added required door bars and (not required) Petty bar and wheelwell bars to the cage.

[Johnny D]

^^ you can run the .010 overbore alternative at 2290.

 

But I assume your budget will not let you do that, correct ?

J~

[cam]

On the topic of making weight in a 1.6, I need to finish with around a 1/3 of a tank of fuel to make minimal weight.  And I still have the full passenger door with glass and a Petty bar.  Without trying too hard, I could get down to around 2225 with me in the car.  I also have one of the oversized radiators and a fire system but do not have a cool suit system.  Fully suited up with helmet I weight around 180. 

[Bench Racer]

Walter, what is your car weight with one gallon of gas and without driver/gear.

 

How stripped are your doors?

 

What diameter roll cage and what tube wall thickness?

 

My 1.6 with one gallon of gas, two gallons of cool suite water, extra roll cage tubing and a MazdaComp L/S  is 2020 pounds.

[Johnny D]

Should this be it's own thread ^^ ?

J~

[Brandon]

Yes, it should be its own thread but to appease Walter, I'd like to know what model year he has too.

 

Essentially, after the '90MY, there were complaints about noise and chassis stiffness that were addressed with additional layers at the firewall & cockpit bulkhead.

I've been told, you have "more room" in a 1990 Miata than you do in a '99+.

 

It's because of these added layers of metal to improve noise isolation and stiffness that changed the interior space and added weight to the 91-93s that cannot be removed and thus, are harder to make weight in than the 1990.

 

Still, removing the Petty bar (not really needed from what I've seen of impacts with the Miata on track - I took mine out if that helps convince you), gutting the doors on both sides (door panel, glass, & mechanism is about 20#) and adding the NASCAR bars is a net drop of 8# to 10#, chip-guard on the fenders, bottom of doors, & rocker panels is another few pounds.

 

Also, I know you won't necessarily be wanting to repaint the entire car, but after taking my car to bare metal on all panels (never, NEVER buy a racecar from a body shop owner - skim coats of filler EVERYWHERE!!!) and removing each and every rock/gravel/clag bit from every opening, I estimate I dropped about 15# total.  Now, with a half-gallon of fuel and myself in the car (which is a 10-over engine), I'm at 2369-2375 consistently and is right where I want to be.

[Bench Racer]

Your post #148, with more power comes more weight.

 

Seems as those you changed horses mid stream from 1st post more power to 2nd post similar power.

 

Simple, if there is a package of upgrades that allows the 1.6 to produce similar power to the other cars then it should race at a similar weight.  On the other hand if allowed changes don't have much impact on power then it should continue to run at a lighter weight.  

 

Don't disagree one bit with ^ this same/similar power statement.

 

Do we agree, the 1.6 weight continues to be 2275 pounds if the end result is with a power increase the 1.6 races heads up/not overdog with the other cars?

[Jim Drago]

Do we agree, the 1.6 weight continues to be 2275 pounds if the end result is with a power increase the 1.6 races heads up/not overdog with the other cars?

I think it goes without saying all drivers in all generation cars would be fine with this.

[Bench Racer]

I think it goes without saying all RATIONAL  drivers in all generation cars would be fine with this.

Not arguing, BUT, I would use the word many, not all because there are those have said on more than one occasion, more power for the 1.6 equals more weight for the 1.6.

[Jim Drago]

Not arguing, BUT, I would use the word many, not all because there are those have said on more than one occasion, more power for the 1.6 equals more weight for the 1.6.

Fixed! All Rational!!

[FTodaro]

I am thinking this could be the perfect fix for the 1.6 especially for Daytona

 

 super miata.jpg   139.94KB   7 downloads

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

I am thinking this could be the perfect fix for the 1.6 especially for Daytona
 
super miata.jpg

Lol if it has wheels and a motor ill race it !

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

Stay tuned, we have info coming soon.

Let me ask this a diff way.

All data aside what is your personal opinion on the way Tom did with the 1.6 ?

Did you get to talk to Tom after qualifying and ask him how he felt about the header and turn signal removed, if he thinks it helped him or not ?

The only reason I'm asking is because it was an actual on track trial and both Tom and you are on top of the game and just wondered what your thoughts where about the way it went (all data aside) just your personal opinions.

[wreckerboy]

Wrecker, Do they make weight with a 220 lb driver? Save me the trip and tell me what I'm missing. So far I have a manual steering rack and removed all power steering brackets, removed all parking brake mechanisms, removed all airbag sensors, all A/C components, rear brake backing plates. No cool suit, no fire system, no data. What am I missing?

My car use to make 2275 before I added required door bars and (not required) Petty bar and wheelwell bars to the cage.

Walter, I've seen them make weight with none other than Mike Collins in the car. For those of you that don't know Mike, he's something like 11'7" tall and although he's lost weight, I'd (and I'm bracing myself here) bet that he's above 220.

Now, once the expected shitstorm that the above statement clears - I'm sure I'll hear about it from him all weekend - my car, which has never seen a serious weight loss program, routinely comes off track around 2290 - 2295. That's with a 185 lb. driver, camera and data acq, a cool suit, radios, a center console, Toyos (not sure what those weigh compared to Hoosiers). I've scaled/helped friends align cars and many of them are in similar states of build and we are all in the same general range.

I do not claim to be the font of all Miata knowledge, but it is my understanding that the 1.6 gained weight over the years. Mine is a very early car (May '89) which probably contributes to its weight. What are you missing? How about the sound deadening mats all over the car? How much Bondo is in the body at this point? I'm not familiar with the tricks of the trade with a top flight build, so I'd take my car to whoever is the guru in your area and talk to them about it. Check out the leading cars in your series and see what they are doing that you aren't.

EDIT: I replied before reading the rest of the thread, which has very good points. Brandon's point about paint is good. I just had bodywork done on mine and I'm reasonably confident the left side has gained some weight again. I also try to come off track with around one gallon of fuel left.

[FTodaro]

Frank, do you know the weight of the winning 1.6? I would be surprized if it was much under 2300 lbs.

 

Does it matter that the driver has more laps at Mid-O, by far, than probably any other active SM racer?

 

For comparison the #17 ran a 1:41.854 at Mid-O in October 2014 presumably at 2300 lbs min. The #21 ran a 142.003 at that same event. Both times are faster than their best laps this past weekend. Granted, Mid-O is very weather/temperature dependent but where's the "big difference"?

Denny i had to pull up this old post because this is a common response from you that we now can quantify soon. Brian Murdick just bought my brother's 99. It will be interesting to see now how i do against Brian in an equally prepped 99. is it his driving is it his car, is it both? We shall soon see.

[Bench Racer]

Todd, transparency is great.

 

Below is copied from Todd's locked post.

 

The current SMAC agenda includes the topic of 1.6 parity. We have about 9 letters on the subject. If you've submitted a letter, thank you. We are taking your input into consideration. We welcome additional input.

 

The current thinking is that there is a need to give some help to the 1.6 to bring it up to the performance level of other cars. The discussion centers around ways to do this that will benefit the majority of 1.6 owners. We considered the likelihood of implementation, based on cost and difficulty for the average racer. We do not want to create a ruleset that makes the 1.6 the Car of the Year, as that would not be good for the class.

 

Allowing more compression may be a very good way to improve parity, but it comes at a cost that makes it unlikely for the majority of 1.6 owners to implement in the near future.

 

There were many options discussed, but they were boiled down to a general consensus to consider allowing all of the following:

 

-removal of left turn signal (less heat soak by getting cooler air to intake)

-heat wrap/tape on snorkel (keeps air cooler)

-cleaning up of welds on factory header (eliminates parts bin hunting and allows all OEM headers to be "good")

-lightening of factory flywheel by approx 2# (helps acceleration in lower gears)

 

We wanted to give all racers an opportunity to provide additional feedback regarding this topic now that we have come up with a potential solution. While we welcome discussion in other sections on this forum and many of us read it, it is not OFFICIAL feedback. If you have an opinion on this issue you MUST submit a letter here:

https://www.crbscca.com/

 

 

The following is my 2 cents aimed to the 1.6'ers, the SMAC and the CRB.

 

As a 1.6 owner who has implemented the ambient air intake and wrapping the snorkel, I believe in the value both items.

 

I believe in the theory/results of cleaning up the header inside welds.

 

When it comes to lightening the flywheel by 2 pounds, my flywheel weighs 17 pounds, that would be a 12% reduction in weight. Several years ago Karl of ART suggested a process of reducing the weight to 14 pounds, which is a 18% reduction in weight. My suggestion is we allow a aluminum flywheel at 9.5 pounds which would be a 44% reduction in weight (approx. cost $340.00).  While I could go through the moment of inertia and torque math I'm sure members of the SMAC are very capable.

 

As long as it has taken for the 1.6 to potentially receive these 4 bones (thank you SMAC/CRB), my thoughts are there will be no future bones. If it's an overdog with the 3 bones and the 9.5 pound flywheel, restrictor plate and or weight the dog.   

 

Letter will be sent with same info as above.

David Dewhurst

SCCA 250772

[Tom Hampton]

I'm curious why "not" the header?  Honestly I preferred that to cleaning up the welds on the existing manifold because it killed a couple of birds with one stone:

 

1. alleged torque, tho' I question the magnitude indicated by the JPM testing. 

2. No more crappy interior welds.

3. No more risk of cracking the manifold/downpipe if the support bracket is omitted.

[Andy Mitchell]

I'm confused (it's not all that uncommon for me, but still... ).

 

Mazda/SCCA does testing to get real numbers on the benefit of various 1.6 improvements, because everyone is saying that you can't do anything without real numbers. Then we are told that the header/turn signal thing seems to work (admittedly based on only a single test, but a test nonetheless).

 

Next thing, I see a post from Mr. Lamb saying the only options being considered really CAN'T be A-B tested (flywheel, turn signal, heat wrap, porting old exhaust manifolds, etc. won't show up on a dyno).

 

What gives? I know I'm just a rube from the backwoods, but this just doesn't make sense.  

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

I'm confused (it's not all that uncommon for me, but still... ).

Mazda/SCCA does testing to get real numbers on the benefit of various 1.6 improvements, because everyone is saying that you can't do anything without real numbers. Then we are told that the header/turn signal thing seems to work (admittedly based on only a single test, but a test nonetheless).

Next thing, I see a post from Mr. Lamb saying the only options being considered really CAN'T be A-B tested (flywheel, turn signal, heat wrap, porting old exhaust manifolds, etc. won't show up on a dyno).

What gives? I know I'm just a rube from the backwoods, but this just doesn't make sense.

Andy I think there using on track data as well as dyno numbers.Personally I think the on track data is more valuable then dyno numbers.

Now remember the 1.6 guys are just trying to get a little more grunt to help it out of the corners and figure out the heat soak issue. Once this is achieved I think most people will be happy.

I don't know if you watch motocross at all but if you do it's kind of like the same thing. Once the 4 strokes came out nobody races the 2 strokes anymore you can't beat the TQ. Yes the 2 strokes rev and sound awesome but just can't keep up with the 4 strokes. The 4 strokes have a lot more TQ and are easier to ride and you don't get burned out as fast. Kind of what we have going on 1.6 vs 99 plus !

Now that being said let's see if anyone has the b@lls to show up at Daytona for the runoffs with a 1.6 where people are saying the 1.6 should shine because of it's higher rev ability !

[Bench Racer]

Now that being said let's see if anyone has the b@lls to show up at Daytona for the runoffs with a 1.6 where people are saying the 1.6 should shine because of it's higher rev ability !

This is truly rumors and here-say, remembering past comments of a couple new 1.6's being built, someone mentioning some private track testing being done and some SouthEast folks not entered to date for Daytona. Nothing stops one or more of the existing entries to enter again with a 1.6. In the overall picture, what's another entry fee.

 

Presume any bones to the 1.6 will be after the Runoffs.