1001 replies to this topic

[Duane Polsley]

Andy I think there using on track data as well as dyno numbers.Personally I think the on track data is more valuable then dyno numbers.

Now remember the 1.6 guys are just trying to get a little more grunt to help it out of the corners and figure out the heat soak issue. Once this is achieved I think most people will be happy.

I don't know if you watch motocross at all but if you do it's kind of like the same thing. Once the 4 strokes came out nobody races the 2 strokes anymore you can't beat the TQ. Yes the 2 strokes rev and sound awesome but just can't keep up with the 4 strokes. The 4 strokes have a lot more TQ and are easier to ride and you don't get burned out as fast. Kind of what we have going on 1.6 vs 99 plus !

Now that being said let's see if anyone has the b@lls to show up at Daytona for the runoffs with a 1.6 where people are saying the 1.6 should shine because of it's higher rev ability !

 

The only problem with your analogy to motocross is the 4 strokes have twice the displacement of the 2 strokes. A 450cc 2 stroke in the 450 class would wax all the 4 strokes and the same in the 250cc class (125cc 2 stroke is the legal limit)

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

The only problem with your analogy to motocross is the 4 strokes have twice the displacement of the 2 strokes. A 450cc 2 stroke in the 450 class would wax all the 4 strokes and the same in the 250cc class (125cc 2 stroke is the legal limit)

Now remember they used to make 2 stroke 500 and I would still put my money on the 450 4 strokes because of the TQ.

So what your saying is that I was accurate. It's just like our class ! Lol !!!! ( just kidding by the way )

[Steve Scheifler]

But the 2 stroke fires every 2 revolutions rather than 4, and revs higher, so effectively higher displacement, but at a loss of torque.

[Danny Steyn]

Lets not get confused - motocross moving from 2-stroke to 4-stroke is all about emissions. Nothing else. Same with jetskis and personal watercraft.

[Danny Steyn]

Regarding Flywheel - Mazda is our major sponsor - never forget that. They want to sell parts to us racers. They are adamant that we stay within the Mazda parts bin. So if we want a lighter flywheel we will lighten the stock Mazda flywheel, not spec an aftermarket flywheel.

[LarryKing]

If I lighten the stock flywheel I will be lightening the one I already own. This racer ain't buying a new flywheel from Mazda - so I don't really get that argument.

 

I'll re-ask a previous question that went unanswered. Why not an aftermarket header (instead of oem header voodoo massaging)?

 

Do we currently Mazda parts-bin the 1.6 intake?

[Brian129]

If I lighten the stock flywheel I will be lightening the one I already own. This racer ain't buying a new flywheel from Mazda - so I don't really get that argument.
 
I'll re-ask a previous question that went unanswered. Why not an aftermarket header (instead of oem header voodoo massaging)?
 
Do we currently Mazda parts-bin the 1.6 intake?

I have two stock flywheels already, if we can lighten then we can resurface so why buy more?
I agree there.

I also see allowing "cleaning up" a stock header to be much harder to police vs. xxx.xxxx part number sourced from such place.
And that would solve the cracking header problem.
That being said, I can see the concern giving the car too much power, but still do not see the harm in adding a bit of restriction with a plate, as it will prevent cherry picking engine flow parts. ( though it seems the header would fix the big outstanding problem.)

My $0.02, worth $0.0000001

[LarryKing]

 

but still do not see the harm in adding a bit of restriction with a plate

 

Or weight/plate adjustment for the NB/NA8

[LarryKing]

Oh yeah - and let the 1.6 wrap the header too.

[Sean - MiataCage]

If I lighten the stock flywheel I will be lightening the one I already own. This racer ain't buying a new flywheel from Mazda - so I don't really get that argument.

 

I'll re-ask a previous question that went unanswered. Why not an aftermarket header (instead of oem header voodoo massaging)?

 

 

These are my opinions, not those of the SMAC:

 

Flywheel - Aftermarket lightweight flywheel would cost everyone something significant if we went that route.  I have not done the cost research myself, but I hear that a proper good quality aftermarket flywheel is $500+.  One of the big objectives for the SMAC is to keep in mind all of the racers and the financial impact any change to the parity discussion would have on them. Re-surfacing a stock flywheel to get rid of the inertia ring would cost $50.00 or less for those that could not do it themselves versus $500+ for something that MAY not accomplish what we are looking for.   For a new build or for an original flywheel that has been re-surfaced to be outside of the current spec would require someone to buy a new OEM Mazda part.

 

Header - I believe that a full blown header would be too much for the car.  To build the best 1.6 that you can, you will need to look for and test several stock headers to find the right one.  Some are way better than others, so allowing the clean-up takes some of the luck out of the header parts bin mathching game and thus makes it cheaper and easier for a competitor with an existing header.  The Mazda header is a very good piece for a 20+ year OEM part.  A lot of the aftermarket parts are Chinese in nature and are not as good and won't last as long.  For every new build we do, we purchase a new header.  Testing headers on the dyno at $135.00 per hour gets expensive quickly, but to get best power it is something that needs to be done.  Allowing competiors to use a grinder on the welds is a no brainer in my opinion.....  Not to mention that there is currenlty no spec or enforcable rule for checking the header welds in today's environment.

 

Flywheel and Header - I will never support a single vendor item like a header or flywheel.  Doesn't mean it won't happen, but I won't support it.  I would absolutely support spec'ing a part, but not spec'ing a vendor.  We race cars in SpecE30/46 and there are several parts that are spec'ed from a single vendor that can not be gotten at all for any price.  Trying to get the spec exhaust for SpecE30 will take you 6 months.  Crash a car and need another one, good luck, and that is a part that is built in the US.  We see other parts issues with parts that come from overseas that get stuck in customs.  We had issues with the Tsunami and also with the Port Strike on the West Coast a few months back. 

 

With a single source provider, we would also be held hostage to whatever price that vendor wants.  That is not good for anyone.

 

Just my 2 cents..... Sean

[davew]

The story on lightened flywheels.

 

Way back in the olden days, when the SMAC consisted of myself, Fowler, Drago, Sam Henry, Meathead and Dave Mc., we discussed allowing the weight ring to be removed. We approved it. But as the proposal went through the system, the word came to us that Mazda corporate was very much against allowing their engineered part to be modified by unknown persons. We where told this was a liability issue. The proposal was discarded based on Mazda's input.

 

Us old SMAC guys looked into a light weight aftermarket flywheel.At the time we could not find one that met our prefered weight and price range. Everything was too light and/or too expensive.

 

I am not saying I agree or disagree with Mazda's concerns. I am only pointing out the past history of the idea. Since none of the current members were on the SMAC when the issue came up the last time, they would have no knowledge of the previous proposal. I am only acting as SMAC historian, based on my admitedly poor memory

 

 

Dave

[Brian129]

These are my opinions, not those of the SMAC:

 

Flywheel - Aftermarket lightweight flywheel would cost everyone something significant if we went that route.  I have not done the cost research myself, but I hear that a proper good quality aftermarket flywheel is $500+.  One of the big objectives for the SMAC is to keep in mind all of the racers and the financial impact any change to the parity discussion would have on them. Re-surfacing a stock flywheel to get rid of the inertia ring would cost $50.00 or less for those that could not do it themselves versus $500+ for something that MAY not accomplish what we are looking for.   For a new build or for an original flywheel that has been re-surfaced to be outside of the current spec would require someone to buy a new OEM Mazda part.

 

Header - I believe that a full blown header would be too much for the car.  To build the best 1.6 that you can, you will need to look for and test several stock headers to find the right one.  Some are way better than others, so allowing the clean-up takes some of the luck out of the header parts bin mathching game and thus makes it cheaper and easier for a competitor with an existing header.  The Mazda header is a very good piece for a 20+ year OEM part.  A lot of the aftermarket parts are Chinese in nature and are not as good and won't last as long.  For every new build we do, we purchase a new header.  Testing headers on the dyno at $135.00 per hour gets expensive quickly, but to get best power it is something that needs to be done.  Allowing competiors to use a grinder on the welds is a no brainer in my opinion.....  Not to mention that there is currenlty no spec or enforcable rule for checking the header welds in today's environment.

 

Flywheel and Header - I will never support a single vendor item like a header or flywheel.  Doesn't mean it won't happen, but I won't support it.  I would absolutely support spec'ing a part, but not spec'ing a vendor.  We race cars in SpecE30/46 and there are several parts that are spec'ed from a single vendor that can not be gotten at all for any price.  Trying to get the spec exhaust for SpecE30 will take you 6 months.  Crash a car and need another one, good luck, and that is a part that is built in the US.  We see other parts issues with parts that come from overseas that get stuck in customs.  We had issues with the Tsunami and also with the Port Strike on the West Coast a few months back. 

 

With a single source provider, we would also be held hostage to whatever price that vendor wants.  That is not good for anyone.

 

Just my 2 cents..... Sean

 

not just to stir the pot,  

 

I agree with the flywheel perspective,  I am not sure I agree on the header side.  

 

Look at how many parts we currently run that are single vendor, and provided to us through mazdaspeed.

Fat cats, suspension kits, the 1.6 cusco diff now(and original Mazda Comp),  ... 

 

to that extent shall we review the STR radius and blending judgement, and measurement? 

If there is that much detail, arguing, and issues while teching a small radius put onto a single sharp edge, how in the world will you police "cleaning up"???

 

I'm foreseeing "cleaned up" Headers being sold either openly or hush hush for big money, as yes @$135/hr tuning one in on a dyno will take a while.  

 

just my thoughts on the tech side

[Sean - MiataCage]

not just to stir the pot,  

 

I agree with the flywheel perspective,  I am not sure I agree on the header side.  

 

Look at how many parts we currently run that are single vendor, and provided to us through mazdaspeed.

Fat cats, suspension kits, the 1.6 cusco diff now(and original Mazda Comp),  ... 

 

to that extent shall we review the STR radius and blending judgement, and measurement? 

If there is that much detail, arguing, and issues while teching a small radius put onto a single sharp edge, how in the world will you police "cleaning up"???

 

I'm foreseeing "cleaned up" Headers being sold either openly or hush hush for big money, as yes @$135/hr tuning one in on a dyno will take a while.  

 

just my thoughts on the tech side

Good points Brian......

 

Fat Cats is a great example in my opinion.  The price has gone up over the years and now there are several people who make their own version of the FC kit by using all the same parts to the point that it would not be techable to tell one kit from another.  Born out of necessity due to price increases and lack of availability. 

 

For things like Tires and larger items where SCCA and/or Mazda can throw thier weight around to help either front the cost of a bunch of inventory or pressure the vendor to get their act together I'm ok with that, but for smaller items that a US vendor would simply be managing a Chinese company, I don't think that is a good idea.  For things like Tires and parts that Mazda manages and supplies, there are contracts in place with SLA's and penalties for non performance and we still see parts from time to time not available.  I would rather see the part dimesnions spec'ed and have some competition in the Marketplace versus having one vendor locked it up.  Still doesn't mean that one vendor can not make and sell the best quality one, but in an bind there would be more options.

 

I think your point about tech is a good one which is why I think allowing the grinder to the welds is a no brainer becuase you really can't tech it now anyway.

 

Thanks..... Sean

[Jim Drago]

The story on lightened flywheels.

 

Way back in the olden days, when the SMAC consisted of myself, Fowler, Drago, Sam Henry, Meathead and Dave Mc., we discussed allowing the weight ring to be removed. We approved it. But as the proposal went through the system, the word came to us that Mazda corporate was very much against allowing their engineered part to be modified by unknown persons. We where told this was a liability issue. The proposal was discarded based on Mazda's input.

 

Us old SMAC guys looked into a light weight aftermarket flywheel.At the time we could not find one that met our prefered weight and price range. Everything was too light and/or too expensive.

 

I am not saying I agree or disagree with Mazda's concerns. I am only pointing out the past history of the idea. Since none of the current members were on the SMAC when the issue came up the last time, they would have no knowledge of the previous proposal. I am only acting as SMAC historian, based on my admitedly poor memory

 

 

Dave

I knew it was something like that, but couldn't remember the particulars

[Jim Drago]

not just to stir the pot,  

 

I agree with the flywheel perspective,  I am not sure I agree on the header side.  

 

Look at how many parts we currently run that are single vendor, and provided to us through mazdaspeed.

Fat cats, suspension kits, the 1.6 cusco diff now(and original Mazda Comp),  ... 

 

to that extent shall we review the STR radius and blending judgement, and measurement? 

If there is that much detail, arguing, and issues while teching a small radius put onto a single sharp edge, how in the world will you police "cleaning up"???

 

I'm foreseeing "cleaned up" Headers being sold either openly or hush hush for big money, as yes @$135/hr tuning one in on a dyno will take a while.  

 

just my thoughts on the tech side

It is very easy to tech.. If ID and OD of pipe is not touched.. the welds can be all but gone.   welds can be cleaned up. pipes can not

[Sean - MiataCage]

I knew it was something like that, but couldn't remember the particulars

That question was asked directly of Mazda a few weeks back.  I will not speak for them, but let's just say that we are already modifying a lot of thier parts and once the part is in the competitors hands their ability to control what a compeitor does to a part is zero....

[Jim Drago]

That question was asked directly of Mazda a few weeks back.  I will not speak for them, but let's just say that we are already modifying a lot of thier parts and once the part is in the competitors hands their ability to control what a compeitor does to a part is zero....

I don't doubt that.. many years and people have passed since we brought this up. We were also told this down through chain of command.. so who knows if/where it came from. This was before I was even on CRB so 7-8 years ago

[Steve Scheifler]

Keep in mind that if lightening the flywheel is allowed, someone will soon insist that we add a scatter shield.

Physics still indicate that a couple pounds off the flywheel will not be a significant benefit on these cars under most racing conditions.

[Sean - MiataCage]

Physics still indicate that a couple pounds off the flywheel will not be a significant benefit on these cars under most racing conditions.

 

Correct...... The theory is that this is additive on top of a few other reccommendations and we are not looking for or needing much.  The math has been done by several people and all agree that it will not be much, but if it is cheap and may help the 1.6L come off the corner a little bit better in some (or even one) of the gears then it is helping and not hurting.

 

This is all good commentary.... Please make sure you are sending in your letters so that this can all be formally acknowledged, dicussed and taken into consideration.  Nothing on this board will be oficially considered.

 

Sean

[LarryKing]

 

To build the best 1.6 that you can, you will need to look for and test several stock headers to find the right one

 

This 'cheat' has been around so long that I suspect there are very few 1.6 cars that have not already part-binned/welds cleaned the header. Thus, allowing this is of no benefit at all.

 

I vote one aftermarket header is chosen and spec'd. Does MazdaSpeed already sell an AM header for the 1.6? (I can't find one on their cumbersome website)