825 replies to this topic

[Lmcgrew79]

I still need suspension, tires, brakes, harnesses, and im sure im forgeting a few things. I may be closer to 13-15k. Went a bit crazy today with mazda speed.

[Todd Lamb]

  This makes the build only a little over $11k excluding data system and transponder!!!

 

Well, no. You don't have tires, brake pads, alternator, coil pack, cam sensor w/new plug, hard top brackets, center net, suspension bushings (besides offset), fire system, trans rebuild, tow hooks, transponder ($0?), fuel sample port, hoses, plugs, wires, etc etc etc.

 

The exercise was to build a front running car, correct? Be realistic about the budget (would you be able to sell a new car without tires and brake pads?), and also if you aren't paying for much of this stuff now, you'll pay extra for it later when it fails on track, costing you valuable track time.

[speedengineer]

Well, no. You don't have tires, brake pads, alternator, coil pack, cam sensor w/new plug, hard top brackets, center net, suspension bushings (besides offset), fire system, trans rebuild, tow hooks, transponder ($0?), fuel sample port, hoses, plugs, wires, etc etc etc.

 

The exercise was to build a front running car, correct? Be realistic about the budget (would you be able to sell a new car without tires and brake pads?), and also if you aren't paying for much of this stuff now, you'll pay extra for it later when it fails on track, costing you valuable track time.

 

Todd,

 

-Alternator, coil pack, cam sensor- already have one, came on the donor car engine!  If I have issues, then I'll replace.  Never had a cam sensor issue in 3 years on my last 99.

-Car comes stock with 4 functional tow hooks.

-I won't have a center net.  Will have a containment seat.

-I'm not going to do suspension bushings.  The higher durometer bushings that mazda sells aren't legal for SM, and my old bushings are probably stiffer/harder than new soft ones, thus reducing the compliance effect on suspension geometry.

-hoses/plugs/wires are/will be included already

-fuel sample port is already covered under the fuel pressure regulator line item

-hardtop brackets will be included, but literally will cost about $3 made from some metal I pull out of the scrap bin haha. 

-The stock trans that came with the car shifts nice.  As long as I can make sufficiently fast shifts, I don't see and benefit to a rebuilt trans.  Not a legal, significant lap time benefit anyway, just reliability.  Trans will only be replaced when I have an issue.  I got 2-3 seasons out of my last stock transmission. Maybe this is a case of "I don't know what I don't know" but I don't think that's it..

-I will likely yet add in the cost of the transponder.  Technically I could rent one or do subscription basis with no up front cost.  But I own my own.

-Tires and brake pads are costs associated with campaigning a car.  Running costs.  Running costs are not build costs.  If somebody had me build them a car, I certainly would ship it back with stock tires and brake pads, unless they paid me to purchase those consumables for them.

 

I did forget to add fire system to the price list, thanks for the reminder.  Could do a bottle only which is less than $30, but I happen to have a system already so it will be a more expensive item.

 

So basically, still looking pretty cheap.  $12k mark maybe.  (excluding data sys).

 

Agreed, the exercise is to build a front running car.  The exercise is also to do so cheaply.  My opinion is that there are a lot of items that people spend money on that don't significantly contribute to reducing lap time, or fixing reliability concerns that aren't necessary.  One of the several reasons for this build is to prove (or perhaps disprove) that you don't need a $40k car to run up front.  I am going to try that approach first and we'll see where I end up.  It might absolutely be the case that you're right and I need to spend a few more thousand to get the car to where it needs to be.  Either way, $12k plus a few thousand still puts me at the $15k mark.

[MPR22]

Todd,

 

-Alternator, coil pack, cam sensor- already have one, came on the donor car engine!  If I have issues, then I'll replace.  Never had a cam sensor issue in 3 years on my last 99.

-Car comes stock with 4 functional tow hooks.

-I won't have a center net.  Will have a containment seat.

-I'm not going to do suspension bushings.  The higher durometer bushings that mazda sells aren't legal for SM, and my old bushings are probably stiffer/harder than new soft ones, thus reducing the compliance effect on suspension geometry.

-hoses/plugs/wires are/will be included already

-fuel sample port is already covered under the fuel pressure regulator line item

-hardtop brackets will be included, but literally will cost about $3 made from some metal I pull out of the scrap bin haha. 

-The stock trans that came with the car shifts nice.  As long as I can make sufficiently fast shifts, I don't see and benefit to a rebuilt trans.  Not a legal, significant lap time benefit anyway, just reliability.  Trans will only be replaced when I have an issue.  I got 2-3 seasons out of my last stock transmission. Maybe this is a case of "don't know what you don't know" but I don't think that's it..

-I will likely yet add in the cost of the transponder.  Technically I could rent one or do subscription basis with no up front cost.  But I own my own.

-Tires and brake pads are costs associated with campaigning a car.  Running costs.  Running costs are not build costs.  If somebody had me build them a car, I certainly would ship it back with stock tires and brake pads, unless they paid me to purchase those consumables for them.

 

I did forget to add fire system to the price list, thanks for the reminder.  Could do a bottle only which is less than $30, but I happen to have a system already so it will be a more expensive item.

 

So basically, still looking pretty cheap.  $12k mark maybe.  (excluding data sys).

 

Agreed, the exercise is to build a front running car.  The exercise is also to do so cheaply.  My opinion is that there are a lot of items that people spend money on that don't significantly contribute to reducing lap time, or fixing reliability concerns that aren't necessary.  One of the several reasons for this build is to prove (or perhaps disprove) that you don't need a $40k car to run up front.  I am going to try that approach first and we'll see where I end up.  It might absolutely be the case that you're right and I need to spend a few more thousand to get the car to where it needs to be.  Either way, $12k plus a few thousand still puts me at the $15k mark.

Nobody is buying a car that doesn't have brake pads, wheels and tires.  You may call that costs associated with campaigning the car but that is just silly, For that matter so is oil, brake fluid....    Also a transponder is a cost of a build.  

 

Anyone can leave off as much as possible and claim they built the car for X when in reality it was X plus 4k when you put it on the track for the race.  I assume you are trying to show the home build crowd that a front running SM should not cost 25 to 30k.  I applaud you detailing your costs but be honest with it and show them what it costs from scratch to put it on the track. You can't race it without pads, wheels and tires.  You don't have to have 8 sets of wheels and tires but 2 sets is the minimum, rains and drys that is the cost of racing.  I personally would also put up a list of the safety gear that needs to purchased, to give new folks a real world view of the entry costs.  

 

I would add a new battery to the cost of the build.  No chance I am wasting a weekend over a $100 battery that is an unknown.  

[speedengineer]

Nobody is buying a car that doesn't have brake pads, wheels and tires.  You may call that costs associated with campaigning the car but that is just silly, For that matter so is oil, brake fluid....    Also a transponder is a cost of a build.  

 

Anyone can leave off as much as possible and claim they built the car for X when in reality it was X plus 4k when you put it on the track for the race.  I assume you are trying to show the home build crowd that a front running SM should not cost 25 to 30k.  I applaud you detailing your costs but be honest with it and show them what it costs from scratch to put it on the track. You can't race it without pads, wheels and tires.  You don't have to have 8 sets of wheels and tires but 2 sets is the minimum, rains and drys that is the cost of racing.  I personally would also put up a list of the safety gear that needs to purchased, to give new folks a real world view of the entry costs.  

 

You misinterpret.  I am not trying to explain how much it costs to 'get into racing'.  Plenty of articles on the internet about that, and the cost of personal safety gear, etc.  I am showing the cost to build a spec miata.  A spec miata:  the car, hardware.  Not the consumables.  If I go to the local home improvement store and buy a generator, it's not going to come with oil in the crankcase and fuel in the tank. Oil and fuel are costs to 'operate' your generator. 

 

Let me ask you this, if you buy a somebodies used front running race car, do you think it's going to arrive with sticker tires and brand new rotors and pads?  Heck no.  Maybe I should include the cost of fuel for the car?  How about I include the cost of my house and pole barn in the build total, cause I wouldn't be able to build the car without that space?  No need to get ridiculous. And no, I'm not adding the cost of a battery, as my donor came with a battery that is fairly new. 

[MPR22]

You misinterpret.  I am not trying to explain how much it costs to 'get into racing'.  Plenty of articles on the internet about that, and the cost of personal safety gear, etc.  I am showing the cost to build a spec miata.  A spec miata:  the car, hardware.  Not the consumables.  If I go to the local home improvement store and buy a generator, it's not going to come with oil in the crankcase and fuel in the tank. Oil and fuel are costs to 'operate' your generator. 

 

Let me ask you this, if you buy a somebodies used front running race car, do you think it's going to arrive with sticker tires and brand new rotors and pads?  Heck no.  Maybe I should include the cost of fuel for the car?  How about I include the cost of my house and pole barn in the build total, cause I wouldn't be able to build the car without that space?  No need to get ridiculous. And no, I'm not adding the cost of a battery, as my donor came with a battery that is fairly new. 

What price am I paying for the car?  When I buy a front running car I am getting what it had on it when it finished the race. It may have 1 heat cycle it may have 6 heat cycle tires.  But If I am buying a front running car I am taking delivery at the track as it comes out of impound.  That is how you buy a front running car.  

[speedengineer]

I'm not going to debate over it, Michael.  My thread, my rules.  You don't like it, you don't have to read it 

[Jim Drago]

Jason

I am enjoying the thread...

IMO to be fair you have to include a set of wheels, tires,cost of calipers or cost of a rebuild kit for the calipers, brake pads and at least the cost of turning a set of rotors.  At some point we are going from building a front running car to a mid pack car with hopes that the driver will bring it close to the front? There is a difference IMO.  

 

there are performance gains in rebuilding the transmission and they are legal ( completely, not tech shed)

 

I am 95% done with my new build. I have not calculated my costs( afraid too), but I suspect I am close to 22k less any labor at all and that is with us doing the engine and trans in house. 

 

And I do agree, your thread, your rules.. just adding some thoughts

[speedengineer]

Jason

I am enjoying the thread...

IMO to be fair you have to include a set of wheels, tires,cost of calipers or cost of a rebuild kit for the calipers, brake pads and at least the cost of turning a set of rotors.  At some point we are going from building a front running car to a mid pack car with hopes that the driver will bring it close to the front.  

 

there are performance gains in rebuilding the transmission and they are legal ( completely, not tech shed)

 

I am 95% done with my new build. I have not calculated my costs( afraid too), but I suspect I am close to 22k less any labor at all and that is with us doing the engine and trans in house. 

 

Cost for wheels and caliper rebuild kit have been on the price sheet for months.  I just feel that tires and pads don't count. 

 

I'll have to consider a transmission for a future purchase, or rebuild my own. 

 

Your new car looks great by the way.  I like the paint scheme. 

[Jim Drago]

Cost for wheels and caliper rebuild kit have been on the price sheet for months.  I just feel that tires and pads don't count. 

 

I'll have to consider a transmission for a future purchase, or rebuild my own. 

 

Your new car looks great by the way.  I like the paint scheme. 

I guess I am more skimming than really reading in detail Sorry my mistake there, carry on

 

Not sure I like new scheme, it is growing on me.. I just need to make it fast as they all look good if running at the front

 

When are you expecting to be completed? First race? ( sorry if that is listed as well)

[Erik Hardy]

I think Jason's thread should be renamed: Here is my build log of attempting to build a nationally competitive car.

Skip over all the $$ bs talk, it's not the focus of the build, it's going to cost whatever it's going to cost.

There is plenty of engineering going on in the background of this project that can be very useful to other budget racers!! 

[speedengineer]

 

Not sure I like new scheme, it is growing on me.. I just need to make it fast as they all look good if running at the front

 

When are you expecting to be completed? First race? ( sorry if that is listed as well)

 

Haha, yup you only have to make the back half of it look good, nobody gets to see the front! 

 

Good question.  Current timeline suggests it should be done around the middle/end of March.  We'll see.  Planning to get it out to Gingerman for a shake-down weekend first, and then see which event I want to race at first.

[speedengineer]

I think Jason's thread should be renamed: Here is my build log of attempting to build a nationally competitive car.

Skip over all the $$ bs talk, it's not the focus of the build, it's going to cost whatever it's going to cost.

There is plenty of engineering going on in the background of this project that can be very useful to other budget racers!! 

Thanks Erik, that is a good point.  I'm not going to talk about cost any more until the car is done.  The build process is much more useful and interesting to others.  Let's focus on that.

 

Yay, engineering. 

[MPR22]

I'm not going to debate over it, Michael.  My thread, my rules.  You don't like it, you don't have to read it 

Just putting in my two cents.  I just sold a car and I know what they expect.  

[Todd Lamb]

The cost and "front running car" are the title of the thread. The cost is highly misleading at best because of the many reasons listed not to replace used parts that will fail sooner rather than later, and also not to include items that quite obviously need to be included in the price tag of a new build.

A front running car in SM at a well attended race requires top prep. Replacing parts during the build that are known to break, so as to finish races and maximize track time, is just one of the many factors in top prep. The parts alone on one of our top prep builds exceeds $25k. And that's not for flashy stuff, just the go fast bits that put a car on the podium the first outing. Drago saves a bit ($3k?) by doing engines in house, but he also gets the headaches of being an engine builder (R&D, customer service etc).

I applaud the low budget build and the dedication to doing the best with the information at hand, but there's so much you're skipping and/or missing here that it should be titled "my mid-pack budget build".

And while we are at it - a halo seat does NOT replace the need for a center net. Don't skimp on safety.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

What price am I paying for the car?  When I buy a front running car I am getting what it had on it when it finished the race. It may have 1 heat cycle it may have 6 heat cycle tires.  But If I am buying a front running car I am taking delivery at the track as it comes out of impound.  That is how you buy a front running car.  

 

 

In general, I would agree with your statement.

 

 I have sold two of my cars over the years that were absolutly front runners, they both came home from a race got put up for sale and then sold and delivered.  The last one in fact went from being picked up at my shop straight to mid ohio and was driven by a driver who had never turned a lap at mid ohio.  He finished p2,p3 and p5 for the weekend and owns the new track record with that car.  

 

I think any buyer needs to do some research as to the character of the seller of said front runner before deciding what method of purchase is best in each individual case.

 

I think this thread is actually overall a very positive thing.  I have never been able to build a front runner for under 20K but I dont normally build the cage or engine myself. I also dont believe in wasted energy to pull subframes off to powder coat or fancy digital gauges throughout. None of that stuff makes a car faster although it may be prettier. 

 

If this builder can build a front runner for whatever his cost point is then more power to him, I just hope that if the car doesnt deliver the advertised objective of front runner status, that this doesnt turn into another whole everyone is cheating if they are faster, not saying that will happen, but have seen many over the years build cars that were not top 10 cars but had themselves convinced they had build top 3 cars.

 

Now back to the build blog with pics etc.  this is undoubtedly one of the best offseason threads we have had here in last 5 years, certainly beats the hell out of parity, and pissing contests!

 

And this is meant as no indictment of the skills possessed by the thread originator 

[speedengineer]

The cost and "front running car" are the title of the thread. The cost is highly misleading at best because of the many reasons listed not to replace used parts that will fail sooner rather than later, and also not to include items that quite obviously need to be included in the price tag of a new build.

A front running car in SM at a well attended race requires top prep. Replacing parts during the build that are known to break, so as to finish races and maximize track time, is just one of the many factors in top prep. The parts alone on one of our top prep builds exceeds $25k. And that's not for flashy stuff, just the go fast bits that put a car on the podium the first outing. Drago saves a bit ($3k?) by doing engines in house, but he also gets the headaches of being an engine builder (R&D, customer service etc).
 

 

Funny how I didn't replace these "so likely to fail" parts on my last race car.  Raced that car hard for 3 complete seasons and NEVER ONCE did I DNF a race.  Not once.  Won two National championships along the way too.  Perhaps not in a class with the participation of SM, but still.

[speedengineer]

I think this thread is actually overall a very positive thing.  I have never been able to build a front runner for under 20K but I dont normally build the cage or engine myself. I also dont believe in wasted energy to pull subframes off to powder coat or fancy digital gauges throughout. None of that stuff makes a car faster although it may be prettier. 

 

If this builder can build a front runner for whatever his cost point is then more power to him, I just hope that if the car doesnt deliver the advertised objective of front runner status, that this doesnt turn into another whole everyone is cheating if they are faster, not saying that will happen, but have seen many over the years build cars that were not top 10 cars but had themselves convinced they had build top 3 cars.

 

Now back to the build blog with pics etc.  this is undoubtedly one of the best offseason threads we have had here in last 5 years, certainly beats the hell out of parity, and pissing contests!

 

And this is meant as no indictment of the skills possessed by the thread originator 

 

Thanks Kyle.  Well put. 

Don't worry, if I'm not competitive, I'll be looking into my own lack of driving talent or working to make the car faster. 

[Rob Burgoon]

The cost and "front running car" are the title of the thread. The cost is highly misleading at best because of the many reasons listed not to replace used parts that will fail sooner rather than later, and also not to include items that quite obviously need to be included in the price tag of a new build.

A front running car in SM at a well attended race requires top prep. Replacing parts during the build that are known to break, so as to finish races and maximize track time, is just one of the many factors in top prep. The parts alone on one of our top prep builds exceeds $25k. And that's not for flashy stuff, just the go fast bits that put a car on the podium the first outing. Drago saves a bit ($3k?) by doing engines in house, but he also gets the headaches of being an engine builder (R&D, customer service etc).

I applaud the low budget build and the dedication to doing the best with the information at hand, but there's so much you're skipping and/or missing here that it should be titled "my mid-pack budget build".

And while we are at it - a halo seat does NOT replace the need for a center net. Don't skimp on safety.

 

Front running != top prep.  Maybe we should wait to see what numbers it puts out before we call it "mid pack budget".

[MPR22]

Front running != top prep.  Maybe we should wait to see what numbers it puts out before we call it "mid pack budget".

Number mean nothing, results mean everything.  Not saying that speed won't put a top prep car out there but dyno numbers are just that numbers. They don't say anything about the rest of the cars prep.  I have seen plenty of 130 hp cars that would not go and some 124's that look like rocket ships.