825 replies to this topic

[MPR22]

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"Podium",  "Top Prep", "$$$", "Great driver"   
 
The question is are these mutually exclusive? Since you brought up Mr. Drennan, in his incredible run the last couple years he has finished 2nd or 3rd 3 times. The car that sat on the top spot in each of those had 2 of the 4 things i mentioned...podium before and had great drivers. It is not top prepped(based on many's definition) or cost a lot. BUT...it runs pretty good!  Sorry, it is the West coast and i guess not a great example of my point. 
 
Your wife is still waiting for that trip to Wine Country Michael!

Was just looking at my cc points thinking where should I take the wife. Thanks for re-focusing me on what is important.

[MPR22]

I've built a few of those. One car in particular I went as far as throwing the gas on it. Just didn't have the balls too light it. :-)

Glad you didn't. Same car has 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd at Majors last year and top 5 finish at run offs. Sounds like a burner to me.

[MPR22]

I still think a $15k SM has the potential to be fast.  Granted, you could build a $50k SM and it be slow if you don't do it right.  You need to focus on what actually matters.  For example, having a very strong motor has a huge influence on lap time; having special 'blue printed' wheel bearings does not have a huge influence.  Just one example of many.  If you rub on the whole drivetrain is there some lap time there, yeah probably, but is it worth all the money you spend?  Maybe I'm wrong and it's worth multiple hp, doubt it though.  Same approach goes for other parts of the car too - dampers, setup/alignment.  etc.  This is an experiment to find out.
 
 
Here is plot with completely arbitrary numbers to show what I think is possible

The last paragraph shows a bit of your naïveté. When we race we are at a distinct disadvantage when we are down 3/2 to our competitor. So spending the time and money to get 1-2 hp out of the build is absolutely worth it. The front runners at every big Major will have spent the time or money to get every last hp out of drivetrain. Shouldn't you? You have the time and ability so don't build a a 98% SM.

[Jim Drago]

Just some random info from a guy who doesn't know all that much

My current 00 car has had an issue I believe is resolved now with charging system.. The reason I didn't run the 00 at the Runoffs. Dynos great, like best we have had great).. but on the track it races like it is 3/2 down. This problem is definitely power( charging system I believe as these cars are crazy sensitive to voltage),it is not drag issue etc. I believe we have resolved it but wont know until we hit that track. problem only shows up at the track. If it races at 3/2 down, I have already made plans with my Buddy in Boca Raton for the weekend as my weekend is essentially over, I can't win there, no way, no how. (this is not solely a "me" issue, this is anyone IMO)
maybe that gives an idea as to how important 3/2 is where at the front of the majors fields.

[speedengineer]

Michael, you are correct, and no need to remind me that a few hp is critical to do well.  My build will be as thorough as it needs to be.  I just don't think I need to spend $$$ to get that benefit. 

 

My motor build will be a 100% effort.  Calipers will be rebuilt, as that's huge benefit/dollar to reduce pad drag.  Maybe I'll repack the stock wheel bearings with good grease cause that's almost free despite little benefit.  Then I'll drive it and see where the car is at.  If the car is slow, I'll consider messing with the rest of the drivetrain. If I do mess with the rest of the drivetrain, I expect to be able to do whatever I want there for well under $1000. 

 

 

Jim, if I'm reading correctly, you're saying that your charging system was faulty, such that the alternator was overcharging, drawing extra load, causing a few hp of parasitic drag?

[Jim Drago]

Jim, if I'm reading correctly, you're saying that your charging system was faulty, such that the alternator was overcharging, drawing extra load, causing a few hp of parasitic drag?

I am in the "thinking" stage of this problem and feel 98% is was charging system as the symptoms fit the crime. Alternator did not fix at the Runoffs. Over/under under/overcharging and voltage instability does weird things to the ecus in these cars and they run like #$%$^ when this happens. We have changed alt( which you should absolutely install a new or reman from a real place, not chinese autozone stuff and fuel pump) ecu,kill switch, management harness, power harness from fusebox to battery and added a additional ground strap.

[Chad Martin]

Does adding wires to the system ("additional ground strap") not represent modifying the wiring/harness?

 

Totally objective question...

 

From an engineering standpoint this isn't really any different than running parallel wires to the fuel pump to maximize voltage, etc...

[chris haldeman]

Glad you didn't. Same car has 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd at Majors last year and top 5 finish at run offs. Sounds like a burner to me.

Car technically has 2 first place in majors with 2 drivers :-)

[MPR22]

Car technically has 2 first place in majors with 2 drivers :-)

sorry didn't mean to steal you win and make it a p2.  

[mhiggins10]

Just my $.02: I'm interested in seeing if this can be a "front running" car on a budget.  In my mind, that doesn't mean it needs to podium or outright win every majors race it enters- just run decently top quarter of the pack at each one.   I will agree that tires and brake pads should be included, but if you can run a season finishing top quarter on the transmission that came with the car, good on ya.  YMMV, obviously, but this would prove it is POSSIBLE (even if unlikely).

 

Keep at the thread- I'll be reading.  Barring the semantics, it's a great winter read and makes me want to go work on my regional backmarker.

[Parity]

The last paragraph shows a bit of your naïveté. When we race we are at a distinct disadvantage when we are down 3/2 to our competitor. So spending the time and money to get 1-2 hp out of the build is absolutely worth it. The front runners at every big Major will have spent the time or money to get every last hp out of drivetrain. Shouldn't you? You have the time and ability so don't build a a 98% SM.

 

The last two years at NASA nationals there was a 3-5 hp range on top five as they hit the dyno. Some in the top 10 were even lower powered but had similar lap times while some mid pack cars matched podium finishers on the dyno. I'm convinced power ranks behind drive train, chassis, setup, and obviously wheel man.

[Bench Racer]

 

Bonus points to anyone who can guess what I'll be using this bottle for during the engine build process:

 

Hints please:

 

During prep previous to parts machining?

 

During machining process?

 

During assembly process?

 

 

Folks should key from the welding cart as to Jason's thought process. Total anal in my book.  

[speedengineer]

Hints please:

 

During prep previous to parts machining?

 

During machining process?

 

During assembly process?

 

 

Folks should key from the welding cart as to Jason's thought process. Total anal in my book.

 

Steve was getting close with his guess on the previous page.  Definitely something to do with engine measurements.  Something you do both before and after machining. 

[speedengineer]

Another clue:

[speedengineer]

and:

[MPR22]

The last two years at NASA nationals there was a 3-5 hp range on top five as they hit the dyno. Some in the top 10 were even lower powered but had similar lap times while some mid pack cars matched podium finishers on the dyno. I'm convinced power ranks behind drive train, chassis, setup, and obviously wheel man.

To a point but when the drivers are equal which is the case at many Majors and the national championships every hp matters.  As Jim pointed out earlier dyno is only part of the story, i have had a hard time keeping up with some cars that dynoed worse than mine and exit speeds were identical, throttle pickup identical.  Parasitic drag, weird electrical gremlins.....

 

 

I can finish in the top 4-6 at a big event in Texas down 5 to 6 hp.  I can't overcome that deficit with driving at some point because I can't pass.  My lap times might have been better but i can't pass and I am just being held up.  Ask the 1.6 crowd about that problem.   

[MPR22]

I still think a $15k SM has the potential to be fast.  Granted, you could build a $50k SM and it be slow if you don't do it right.  You need to focus on what actually matters.  For example, having a very strong motor has a huge influence on lap time; having special 'blue printed' wheel bearings does not have a huge influence.  Just one example of many.  If you rub on the whole drivetrain is there some lap time there, yeah probably, but is it worth all the money you spend?  Maybe I'm wrong and it's worth multiple hp, doubt it though.  Same approach goes for other parts of the car too - dampers, setup/alignment.  etc.  This is an experiment to find out.

 

 

Here is plot with completely arbitrary numbers to show what I think is possible

just read the graph.  I think your misinterpreting what others think.  I have never heard of anyone saying it cost $40,000 to build a top prep SM.  $22-25k yes but not $40K.  Those that pay $40k are spending on the labor and bells and whistles that don't have anything to do with speed.  

[speedengineer]

just read the graph.  I think your misinterpreting what others think.  I have never heard of anyone saying it cost $40,000 to build a top prep SM.  $22-25k yes but not $40K.  Those that pay $40k are spending on the labor and bells and whistles that don't have anything to do with speed.  

 

I even put it in bold and red for ya.  still missed it 

[MPR22]

I even put it in bold and red for ya.  still missed it 

LOL.  arbitrary or not it still says something.  

[speedengineer]

All, can we please be done with any posts related to 'dollars spent' for a while please?  As much fun as it was to rile everybody up, I think it's derailing this thread and taking it somewhere I don't want it to go. 

 

Much appreciated!

 

 

Decisions, decisions.  Should I work on the cage or the engine tonight?  I'm thinking cage is a better choice.