285 replies to this topic

[Martinracing98]

Thank you for proving my point:

https://www.crbscca.com/

Thank you. Letter sent.

[Steve Scheifler]

Sean, I wasn’t fed bad information. In your earlier post you made a big deal multiple times about there being only 3 letters in addition to Jim’s, and went on to repeat the song about how anything else has ZERO (your emphasis) bearing on decisions. You went on to say that there will be more discussion but made it clear, intentionally or not, that it’s low priority and of low interest. I did NOT say that it had been killed, I specifically said that there are several possible paths from here and THAT one would be unacceptable. Give us a sense of where the committee stands, without naming names tell us how many of the committee were already opposed or leaning that way.

Nobody is asking or expecting the CRB to act based on discussion or polls here, that just sounds like more smoke. We don’t expect SMAC to monitor forums and initiate action based on that. More smoke & obfuscation. BUT, many, many, many requests to the various advisory committees have moved forward to WDYT or whatever on the strength of no more than a couple letters IF the committee members see potential value in it. In fact, I expect that’s the rule rather than the exception. This part just REALLY bothers me. How the hell do you expect those “thousands” even to be aware of a proposal until you take the next step??? It’s just ridiculous to imply that a request supported by only 4 letters is somehow unworthy. You have the letters and you are all aware of this discussion and poll. Not asking anyone to hunt the forums looking for a cause or to make final policy based on what’s here, but nor do I accept that what happens here is irrelevant during the initial phase.

What I think IS reasonable to expect, especially when a proposal is already a hot topic, is that we be notified in the relevant discussion before next SMAC meeting that you will be discussing it and remind people that when you report to the CRB you must refer to official letters not this forum. If you put so much weight on the number of letters where are they supposed to come from?

Urgency: Stuff moves slowly, this is not early to ask for 2020 changes and ask SMAC to prioritize it. And if even a consideration then it makes sense NOW to ask Hoosier to provide a smooth surface for stickers, possibly with a slightly raised border to protect them.

[Cnj]

Letter submitted.

(I’m tired of being outspent by those who are beating me. On the occasions I’ve joined in fully on the spending spree, they are still beating me. There must be some secret spending going on that I don’t know about. So I’m also for banning all secret spending so that I can finally win some damn races.)

CNJ

[gerglmuff2]

the perception across the SCCA IMO of the letter system is that the advisory committees just say "thank you for your input" to everything, which leaves the membership with the impression that there letter was mostly just ignored and put in the trash. 

I know the autocross advisory committees have been working on trying to give a little bit more feedback than just the TYFYI for proposals which at least validates the letter writer a bit. that validation goes a long way to the cynicism of the membership. 

I understand that there are some crazy proposals that dont need a huge explanation, or there are changes that require the membership be kinda left in the dark (see also the letters written about shocks, while the penske was being evaluated and changed). a little explanation on why decisions are made though would go a long way, and i thank you for your time Sean, coming in here and answering questions. 

[Danny Steyn]

Just and FYI, SCCA handed out Tire Limit Questionnaire to drivers at the Watkins Glen HST this weekend.

 

Ironically this is a track where very few of us run stickers. I ran 2-4HC tires for the qually and races.

 

With regard to a tire limit, I am all in favor of it, if it is sensible. However I don't see it as simple to implement and I forsee issues with enforcement and "exceptions". I have been at races, Daytona most recently, where I have had to lock down a car, and corded all 4 tires. To be told that I cannot run the next race because I do not have tires, would send me to another sanctioning body, so there needs to be a rule for the exception. And if there is a rule for the exception, then there is always that creative person using that rule exception to his advantage. 

[Brandon]

Just and FYI, SCCA handed out Tire Limit Questionnaire to drivers at the Watkins Glen HST this weekend.

 

Ironically this is a track where very few of us run stickers. I ran 2-4HC tires for the qually and races.

 

With regard to a tire limit, I am all in favor of it, if it is sensible. However I don't see it as simple to implement and I forsee issues with enforcement and "exceptions". I have been at races, Daytona most recently, where I have had to lock down a car, and corded all 4 tires. To be told that I cannot run the next race because I do not have tires, would send me to another sanctioning body, so there needs to be a rule for the exception. And if there is a rule for the exception, then there is always that creative person using that rule exception to his advantage. 

 

WGI is a track that loves HC'ed tires as opposed to stickers.

That said, a track which loves stickers (NJMP Thunderbolt) does support the thoughts of gamesmanship.

 

Stamp your used tires (however many is part of the rule), go out in qualifying and "have a lock-up" making your black round tires square, then get four new stamps on your stickers.

Not sure how you would police that (video evidence?) or there being any enforcement for attempting to violate it with a questionable behavior. Certainly nothing license-affecting (points, probation, reprimand) but perhaps "weekend impact" specific.

 

Isn't there an SM compliance chief now present at each HST? Make them the "tire stamp czar"?

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Just and FYI, SCCA handed out Tire Limit Questionnaire to drivers at the Watkins Glen HST this weekend.

Ironically this is a track where very few of us run stickers. I ran 2-4HC tires for the qually and races.

With regard to a tire limit, I am all in favor of it, if it is sensible. However I don't see it as simple to implement and I forsee issues with enforcement and "exceptions". I have been at races, Daytona most recently, where I have had to lock down a car, and corded all 4 tires. To be told that I cannot run the next race because I do not have tires, would send me to another sanctioning body, so there needs to be a rule for the exception. And if there is a rule for the exception, then there is always that creative person using that rule exception to his advantage.

Danny using your logic we should not have any rules cause someone will get creative and slot a control arm or grind out the str in the head or make their rp larger then prescribed. I call BS that is why rules are tweaked once someone gets clever and get around a rule. I also call BS as you are not going to go to another sanctioning body unless you may go pro. You will not find the competition you crave at chump or nasa or pca or BMW club etc. So that is just an idol threat and argument.

This rule if implemented can have exceptions contingent upon showing vid evedicen of a clear need to flat spot your tires ex avoiding a spining car etc. And not just cause you went to fast and spin yourself out. No vid no tires and if you can don't work like mine does sometime that's just tough luck, and it would be my own fault, it might suck but it's the rule.

[Martinracing98]

Just and FYI, SCCA handed out Tire Limit Questionnaire to drivers at the Watkins Glen HST this weekend.
 
Ironically this is a track where very few of us run stickers. I ran 2-4HC tires for the qually and races.
 
With regard to a tire limit, I am all in favor of it, if it is sensible. However I don't see it as simple to implement and I forsee issues with enforcement and "exceptions". I have been at races, Daytona most recently, where I have had to lock down a car, and corded all 4 tires. To be told that I cannot run the next race because I do not have tires, would send me to another sanctioning body, so there needs to be a rule for the exception. And if there is a rule for the exception, then there is always that creative person using that rule exception to his advantage.

If you have to change tires you start at the back

[38bfast]

just for the sake of argument. lets say there was a 4 marked tire rule (new or used). Lets say there was an exception for flat spotting tires, I you could prove to tech for replacement. Lets say replacement had to be used tires. 

 

The racer looking to push the rule would go out for Q1 and on the cool down lap lock them up hard. Go to tech with his one lap "scrub" stickers (considered used) and replace all 4. 

 

but not allowing for a replacement for damaged tires could put you on the trailer for the weekend after Q1. (worst case) 

[ppridday]

just for the sake of argument. lets say there was a 4 marked tire rule (new or used). Lets say there was an exception for flat spotting tires, I you could prove to tech for replacement. Lets say replacement had to be used tires. 
 
The racer looking to push the rule would go out for Q1 and on the cool down lap lock them up hard. Go to tech with his one lap "scrub" stickers (considered used) and replace all 4. 
 
but not allowing for a replacement for damaged tires could put you on the trailer for the weekend after Q1. (worst case)

 
Is it really worth ruining a set of new stickers after qualifying just to be able to get a new set of stickers for the race?  If I'd known the prize money was that good I would have been trying a lot harder.  Maybe even gone on a diet to get the weight down under 2300.  
 
I voted yes for the simple fact that I think that any way to save money and to be able to tell new potential racers that there are cost savings trying to be realized is good for the sport.  This next race will be my first set of new sticker Hoosiers.  I just don't have enough stake in the claim to worry about it.  I just like to go out and race and I know I will never be anywhere near the front.  Having said that I am very much looking forward to seeing how they work for me.  I was previously hoping that there was some magic in Drago's take offs, but it appears he used up all the 'fast' that was in them.  

[ppridday]

Duplicate

 

[Tom Sager]

just for the sake of argument. lets say there was a 4 marked tire rule (new or used). Lets say there was an exception for flat spotting tires, I you could prove to tech for replacement. Lets say replacement had to be used tires. 

 

The racer looking to push the rule would go out for Q1 and on the cool down lap lock them up hard. Go to tech with his one lap "scrub" stickers (considered used) and replace all 4. 

 

but not allowing for a replacement for damaged tires could put you on the trailer for the weekend after Q1. (worst case) 

 

Replacement of 1 tire = Must be a tire with a previous event sticker, not simply a used tire.

Replacement of 2 or more tires = Must be tires with previous event stickers and 2 second qualifying time penalty.

 

And all replacements have to be approved by tech due to "damage".

 

Or something like this. 

[Bench Racer]

The racer looking to push the rule would go out for Q1 and on the cool down lap lock them up hard. Go to tech with his one lap "scrub" stickers (considered used) and replace all 4. 

 

 

If you have to change MORE THAN ONE tires you start at the back

[Jim Drago]

 

 

With regard to a tire limit, I am all in favor of it, if it is sensible. However I don't see it as simple to implement and I forsee issues with enforcement and "exceptions". I have been at races, Daytona most recently, where I have had to lock down a car, and corded all 4 tires. To be told that I cannot run the next race because I do not have tires, would send me to another sanctioning body, so there needs to be a rule for the exception. And if there is a rule for the exception, then there is always that creative person using that rule exception to his advantage. 

You can substitute 4 tires, but you have to start at the back if driver error

 

Could also add an appeal portion to the plan. Appeal to stewart as we all run video. If you lock 4 down to avoid someone and a crash, you perhaps can swap tires for other used and keep your position. 

 

Again, there is no official plan, it is just an idea

[Jim Drago]

. I also call BS as you are not going to go to another sanctioning body unless you may go pro. You will not find the competition you crave at chump or nasa or pca or BMW club etc. So that is just an idol threat and argument.

.

I think he has you there Danny

[Jim Drago]

 

 

The racer looking to push the rule would go out for Q1 and on the cool down lap lock them up hard. Go to tech with his one lap "scrub" stickers (considered used) and replace all 4. 

 

 

I liked it so much.. I had to use it again...

https://www.youtube....h?v=cH7e5wxSbbQ

 

 

If you are dumb enough to do that, you start from the back, PERIOD.  Its really not that tough.

If there is an exception plan, you better dam well have an iron clad i was about to die video proof or you start from the back 

Only 

[Jim Drago]

but not allowing for a replacement for damaged tires could put you on the trailer for the weekend after Q1. (worst case)

And NO WHERE didnt anyone suggest putting someone on the trailer.. Worst penalty I suggested or saw anywhere was you lose your times when replacing more than one tire. You start in the rear, not go home.   For all these people ( who personally I don't think exist) who flat spot all four tires multiple times etc. Hopefully this plan will make them better drivers as they will eventually get tired of starting in the back and learn?

[Steve Scheifler]

To the back may be considered too severe and lose support. Would it make sense to get hit with say 5 grid positions, or 2 positions per tire >1? How many positions would you trade for stickers?

[Martinracing98]

For all these people ( who personally I don't think exist) who flat spot all four tires multiple times etc. Hopefully this plan will make them better drivers as they will eventually get tired of starting in the back and learn?

I agree. I do not think it happens much. So if an exception is found to be too difficult then I think back of the pack is fine.

[Jim Drago]

To the back may be considered too severe and lose support. Would it make sense to get hit with say 5 grid positions, or 2 positions per tire >1? How many positions would you trade for stickers?

I’d take 10 spot penalty for stickers with very little thought at most tracks. Remember imo this is little more than a scare tactic.. I have not flat spotted four tires over the last three years let alone one time?

How many times have you flat spotted all four? We shouldn't base much of the plan imo based on something that rarely happens in the first place..