285 replies to this topic

[38bfast]

 
I really like Jim's proposal but getting a longer lasting tire is a key to it working well for the masses.  In that context (with a tire more RA1-like) it's brilliant. 

Tom you’re joking right? You want a tire like the RA1. That tire wasn’t fast until it was about to show cords. We would shave them to 1/32 and get 3 sessions out of them before we hit cords. If you tried to run them at 4/32 you were a second off the pace. Yea 2 sets of 4/32 would last you the entire season but only with the last 15% of them being competitive. The RR is the same but not as extreme in time spilts, but still a tire you shave if you want good out of the box.

[Tom Sager]

Tom you’re joking right? You want a tire like the RA1. That tire wasn’t fast until it was about to show cords. We would shave them to 1/32 and get 3 sessions out of them before we hit cords. If you tried to run them at 4/32 you were a second off the pace. Yea 2 sets of 4/32 would last you the entire season but only with the last 15% of them being competitive. The RR is the same but not as extreme in time spilts, but still a tire you shave if you want good out of the box.

 

No, wouldn't want the RA-1 or any tire that has to be shaved.  A purpose built tire molded at racing depth is a better choice IMO.  Now I don't recall the RA-1 being quite as extreme as you mention.  Almost always we had them shaved to 2/32 and they worked well for at least a couple events or more and the performance of the tire seemed pretty consistent over that period of use.  The change in grip/lap time from the 1st cycle to the 7th or 8th or so before they were "done" was minimal IIRC.  Tire choice then was less critical to success.  Mid-Ohio did favor really old RA-1s but other tracks not so much in this part of the country as best I can recall.  I had my share of high finishes and some wins during that era and never spent less on tires than then. 

 

At the Blackhawk Major last month the SRF3 winner on both days ran on double digit cycle Hoosiers.  They didn't shave them to start.   The FE National Champ in 2017 who I know very well ran almost the entire season prior to the Runoffs (including in and out of conference Major and ST races) on 1 set of tires until the spec tire changed.   Yes those are much lighter purpose built race cars, but that should tell us that better is possible and likely out there.  Nothing will be perfect, but better has to be the near term goal.   Kyle said it well above, "best is the enemy of better". 

[powerss]

I would for sure So will many others that may not admit it

Jim

I am sympathetic to your tire cost issues and I think limiting the amount of tires that can be used in a weekend is a good direction if we can manage it and no one can find loopholes to exploit it.  It will definitely be a good direction for me because I NEVER use 3 sets of stickers in a weekend.. MAYBE 2 if I have won enough Contingency and the track requires it.

 

Does your idea apply to Runoffs too?

 

This may be another topic to start but how about a discussion to save costs for other members in the class too.  Towing to events is a huge expense(and time suck) to me so I can only run the events that are out here on the west coast for HST.  I wouldn't have even had 6 events to count until they added Laguna Seca.

 

What about having to use both results from a given weekend instead of being able to pick the best results from multiple weekends for national points?  How many events did you tow to to get your 6 races counted for points?

 

Just food for thought about the costs of running up front and trying for a National points win or a National championship..

[Jim Drago]

Jim

I am sympathetic to your tire cost issues and I think limiting the amount of tires that can be used in a weekend is a good direction if we can manage it and no one can find loopholes to exploit it.  It will definitely be a good direction for me because I NEVER use 3 sets of stickers in a weekend.. MAYBE 2 if I have won enough Contingency and the track requires it.

 

Does your idea apply to Runoffs too?

 

This may be another topic to start but how about a discussion to save costs for other members in the class too.  Towing to events is a huge expense(and time suck) to me so I can only run the events that are out here on the west coast for HST.  I wouldn't have even had 6 events to count until they added Laguna Seca.

 

What about having to use both results from a given weekend instead of being able to pick the best results from multiple weekends for national points?  How many events did you tow to to get your 6 races counted for points?

 

Just food for thought about the costs of running up front and trying for a National points win or a National championship..

 

 

Steve

Not my program.. I just put the idea out. It is what everyone wants or doesn't want. I like limiting tires at runoffs too, but didn't mention it specifically in the plan.   But up to everyone and powers that be, not me

 

On HST,  I could care less about that Championship other than I don't want Danny to win it   I don't care what they do with that championship or how they score it. I have won it three times and is really not important to me  I just go to the races I want to attend. Always go to the tracks I want to go. My closest race is 8 hrs away, so I do my fair share of travel as well.  Hallet 8, Atlanta 8, Mid Ohio 10, road America 11, Vir 11, Sebring 12.   Being in Mid Div is not that easy on travel either. 

[Brandon]

Well i don't have an answer but maybe we can make the rule track dependent. limiting new tires at a track like Gingerman that eats tires and if you could afford a new set for each race would be important. There are not that many low tire consumption tracks out there. Mid O, NCM if we ever went there. most tracks like fresh tires so

 

I am proposing the Mid O exception to the rule. lol. 

 

The Glen loves old tires whereas NJMP (Thunderbolt & Lightning (very very frightening)) wants stickers.

[Brandon]

Modification of suggestion:

 

Make it 5 stamps/stickers per weekend.

Allow ANY previously stamped/stickered/used tire from that season to be ran at a HST and Majors event.

Can only run a total of 3 different stamps/stickers per weekend (not certain if this requirement is necessary).

 

This should cover all contingencies while enabling options later in the year for tire cycling/rotation as necessary by those who have tighter budgets.

 

Doing the math on this means:

Event 1 == 5 tires available to use

Event 2 == 10 tires available to use, two stickers possible (E1 & E2); can swap in one of 10 tires in the event of a tire failure (slice, blowout, flat spot)

Event 3 == 15 tires available to use, three stickers possible (E1-E3); can swap in one of 15 tires

Event 4 == 20 tires available to use, four stickers possible (E1-E4; E1 & E2 tires possibly still being usable)

Event 4 == 25 tires available to use......

This would enable the "weekend sticker contingent" to do what they need to do for pointy-end performance while supporting the "budget-friendly contingent" who happens to attend a HST/Major event.

 

"Weekend Sticker Contingent" - Event 4 of the season and it's a track that's hard on left side tires (LRP): sticker up then take the best tires from your previous events knowing you can only have two other stickers/stamps throughout the weekend.

 

"Budget-Friendly Contingent" - Event 4 of the season and it's a track that's hard on left side tires (LRP): don't sticker up and bring two sets of the best of your previously sticker/stamped tires. No need to worry about the maximum allowed stickers/stamps.

 

How to police and enforcement/discipline this will be the larger question but I imagine there will be plenty of eyes on sidewalls in grid.

[Steve Scheifler]

Modification of suggestion:

Make it 5 stamps/stickers per weekend.
Allow ANY previously stamped/stickered/used tire from that season to be ran at a HST and Majors event.
Can only run a total of 3 different stamps/stickers per weekend (not certain if this requirement is necessary).
...

WTFC - KISS

[gerglmuff2]

Modification of suggestion:

 

Make it 5 stamps/stickers per weekend.

Allow ANY previously stamped/stickered/used tire from that season to be ran at a HST and Majors event.

Can only run a total of 3 different stamps/stickers per weekend (not certain if this requirement is necessary).

 

This should cover all contingencies while enabling options later in the year for tire cycling/rotation as necessary by those who have tighter budgets.

 

Doing the math on this means:

Event 1 == 5 tires available to use

Event 2 == 10 tires available to use, two stickers possible (E1 & E2); can swap in one of 10 tires in the event of a tire failure (slice, blowout, flat spot)

Event 3 == 15 tires available to use, three stickers possible (E1-E3); can swap in one of 15 tires

Event 4 == 20 tires available to use, four stickers possible (E1-E4; E1 & E2 tires possibly still being usable)

Event 4 == 25 tires available to use......

This would enable the "weekend sticker contingent" to do what they need to do for pointy-end performance while supporting the "budget-friendly contingent" who happens to attend a HST/Major event.

 

"Weekend Sticker Contingent" - Event 4 of the season and it's a track that's hard on left side tires (LRP): sticker up then take the best tires from your previous events knowing you can only have two other stickers/stamps throughout the weekend.

 

"Budget-Friendly Contingent" - Event 4 of the season and it's a track that's hard on left side tires (LRP): don't sticker up and bring two sets of the best of your previously sticker/stamped tires. No need to worry about the maximum allowed stickers/stamps.

 

How to police and enforcement/discipline this will be the larger question but I imagine there will be plenty of eyes on sidewalls in grid.

 

spot on.

spot the fudge on. 

this. 

please write a letter. 

[Mark]

Truer words never written:

 

"How to police and enforcement/discipline this will be the larger question but I imagine there will be plenty of eyes on sidewalls in grid."

 

Any suggestions as to where the administration of the program will come from? In our region the tech people are barely hanging on as it is now. 

[Jim Drago]

Modification of suggestion:
 
Make it 5 stamps/stickers per weekend.
Allow ANY previously stamped/stickered/used tire from that season to be ran at a HST and Majors event.
Can only run a total of 3 different stamps/stickers per weekend (not certain if this requirement is necessary).
 
This should cover all contingencies while enabling options later in the year for tire cycling/rotation as necessary by those who have tighter budgets.
 
Doing the math on this means:
Event 1 == 5 tires available to use
Event 2 == 10 tires available to use, two stickers possible (E1 & E2); can swap in one of 10 tires in the event of a tire failure (slice, blowout, flat spot)
Event 3 == 15 tires available to use, three stickers possible (E1-E3); can swap in one of 15 tires
Event 4 == 20 tires available to use, four stickers possible (E1-E4; E1 & E2 tires possibly still being usable)
Event 4 == 25 tires available to use......
This would enable the "weekend sticker contingent" to do what they need to do for pointy-end performance while supporting the "budget-friendly contingent" who happens to attend a HST/Major event.
 
"Weekend Sticker Contingent" - Event 4 of the season and it's a track that's hard on left side tires (LRP): sticker up then take the best tires from your previous events knowing you can only have two other stickers/stamps throughout the weekend.
 
"Budget-Friendly Contingent" - Event 4 of the season and it's a track that's hard on left side tires (LRP): don't sticker up and bring two sets of the best of your previously sticker/stamped tires. No need to worry about the maximum allowed stickers/stamps.
 
How to police and enforcement/discipline this will be the larger question but I imagine there will be plenty of eyes on sidewalls in grid.

IMO way way way too complicated..
I also race one of the big later races like The Sprints on two sets of stickers or real close.

IMO all of your, well most of you budgeting of tires can be done before you apply the four stickers.

To each his own, but you turned something VERY easy to way too complicated IMO. But send it in, let SMAC/CRB tweak it whatever way they see best. Just as long as we all want something. Not my place to say what is better or worse

[Tom Hampton]

WTFC - KISS

LMAO. History of the SCCA in a nutshell, Or, an answer to the question...."Why is the GCR 6,397 pages long?"

[Jim Drago]

Truer words never written:
 
"How to police and enforcement/discipline this will be the larger question but I imagine there will be plenty of eyes on sidewalls in grid."

 
Any suggestions as to where the administration of the program will come from? In our region the tech people are barely hanging on as it is now. 

Do they check restrictor plates? Weigh cars? If so, I would think they could look at a sticker on the door when they are looking for car weight sticker.. and make sure the 4 tire stickers match

[Tom Hampton]

Modification of suggestion:
 
Make it 5 stamps/stickers per weekend.
Allow ANY previously stamped/stickered/used tire from that season to be ran at a HST and Majors event.
Can only run a total of 3 different stamps/stickers per weekend (not certain if this requirement is necessary).
 
This should cover all contingencies while enabling options later in the year for tire cycling/rotation as necessary by those who have tighter budgets.
 
Doing the math on this means:
Event 1 == 5 tires available to use
Event 2 == 10 tires available to use, two stickers possible (E1 & E2); can swap in one of 10 tires in the event of a tire failure (slice, blowout, flat spot)
Event 3 == 15 tires available to use, three stickers possible (E1-E3); can swap in one of 15 tires
Event 4 == 20 tires available to use, four stickers possible (E1-E4; E1 & E2 tires possibly still being usable)
Event 4 == 25 tires available to use......
This would enable the "weekend sticker contingent" to do what they need to do for pointy-end performance while supporting the "budget-friendly contingent" who happens to attend a HST/Major event.
 
"Weekend Sticker Contingent" - Event 4 of the season and it's a track that's hard on left side tires (LRP): sticker up then take the best tires from your previous events knowing you can only have two other stickers/stamps throughout the weekend.
 
"Budget-Friendly Contingent" - Event 4 of the season and it's a track that's hard on left side tires (LRP): don't sticker up and bring two sets of the best of your previously sticker/stamped tires. No need to worry about the maximum allowed stickers/stamps.
 
How to police and enforcement/discipline this will be the larger question but I imagine there will be plenty of eyes on sidewalls in grid.

What about months with 29 days where there are two races in the same month?
Or years divisible by 4, but aren't leap years that have more than 13 races?

[Tom Hampton]

Do they check restrictor plates? Weigh cars? If so, I would think they could look at a sticker on the door when they are looking for car weight sticker.. and make sure the 4 tire stickers match

They probably don't know a CV cage and ball assembly either. Well.....they might.......now.

[Tom Sager]

Do they check restrictor plates? Weigh cars? If so, I would think they could look at a sticker on the door when they are looking for car weight sticker.. and make sure the 4 tire stickers match

 

Easy and do it the Mike Collins tech way.  Herd the entire field to impound and reprimand anyone who took too long to get there or too long to leave.  

[Jim Drago]

What about months with 29 days where there are two races in the same month?
Or years divisible by 4, but aren't leap years that have more than 13 races?

[powerss]

Jim

I am glad you can sympathize with me about the amount of towing cost that it takes to run HST events.  It sounds like you are in the same boat.  Maybe tow funds should be applied for all these events by raiding the Mazda Contingency Program and spreading the wealth instead of pay for performance.

 

I think this tire limitation proposal could have the negative side effect of not encouraging people running track sessions especially at races that have multiple qualifying sessions.

example: I will not run an afternoon qualifying (only run the morning session with good air) to save my tires for later sessions.  

 

F1 had that problem with their OLD qualifying structure where there was large amounts of time where there were no cars on track. We probably would need to have some rule change that encourages the need to use every session.

 

I know.....KISS but only if it works.

 

For me the biggest cost of running the HST/Majors is Towing, Entry Fees, then tires but that is because I chose to limit the amount of tires i throw at a weekend.  I could be more competitive with new tires every session but I don't choose to. I am OK to be a top 5 rather than compete for 1st place.  I still always have people to run with when I go back to Road America and run my budget strategy although I know I will not be competing for the top spot or maybe not even the podium.  Want to join me Jim?

 

That being said, anything that forces budgeting of tires will give me a better shot at being more competitive.  

[OrangeCrush86]

After 5 pages I think the KISS solution is to have a tire that doesn't go off a cliff. They should of released the SM8 this year at the same time as the Penske shocks. Them holding off on that has only done two things; increased SM7 sales and created this thread.

[Steve Scheifler]

...
F1 had that problem with their OLD qualifying structure where there was large amounts of time where there were no cars on track. We probably would need to have some rule change that encourages the need to use every session.
...

Hard to argue with that, it would be a shame if our TV ad rates dropped due to a lack of action.

[Tom Sager]

After 5 pages I think the KISS solution is to have a tire that doesn't go off a cliff.

 

Yes, the more consistent tire is critical to cost containment for the masses.