285 replies to this topic

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Its official.. Let's call it the RPTMP and roll with it!

 

 

ironic we are naming a program after a guy who doesn' race in our class and therfore has no need to buy tires!

[Roberts37]

3 sets of used tires= $900, one set of new tires= $900, sooo seems like a no brainer to me...

[Steve Scheifler]

Unfortunately only a small percentage of SM racers are active on this site, and it seems particularly few from the western regions. Aside from that, even today any poll done only online is at risk of being somewhat skewed. Why not print up a sheet with an outline of this proposal, possibly with just a very few checkboxes for options, and distribute them to SM entrants at the next few HST events? Ideally they would have the member name and membership number already filled in, their preferred email address if on file (and a space to add it if not) and a checkbox for if they want to stay in the loop regarding this one topic.

I would present it as an effort to gauge interest in the general concept and at most a few high level options, with no imminent decisions without further communication and feedback. Internet and email are great, but the audience in this case is very specific and accessible in person, so for the first step I would go old school with a SIMPLE printed communication.

[FTodaro]

I have withheld my vote till now because i wanted to get everyone's opinions about the pros and cons. at the end of the day limiting cost is a good thing I would support any program that excludes the regional racer as its not an issue imo. As a class we have to continue to innovate. It should be tested before it goes nationwide but it deserves a good test at a minimum to work out the bugs.

[Steve Scheifler]

Mike Collins, your thoughts?

[Nathan Pring]

3 sets of used tires= $900, one set of new tires= $900, sooo seems like a no brainer to me...

 

This is why it's in Hoosiers interest to make a longer lasting tire.  If the second hand market is that attractive (as I've also realized), then you'll be selling a whole lot less new tires unless the product improves.  

[Mike Collins]

I have a problem with any rule that cannot be enforced. NO CHANCE you ask a volunteer tech crew to enforce a tire rule that requires a scanner, stickers and constant monitoring.

 

I'm not even going to go into the ways you "could" beat the system.....

 

I love Hoosier, they have been great to me and the SM community. I've always asked for a harder narrower tire... Use the search function.... I've been beating that drum for a decade. Hoosier could build it but they would sell less tires or the tires would get way more expensive...business is business.

[Jim Drago]

I have a problem with any rule that cannot be enforced. NO CHANCE you ask a volunteer tech crew to enforce a tire rule that requires a scanner, stickers and constant monitoring.
 
I'm not even going to go into the ways you "could" beat the system.....

Please play devils advocate...( that goes for everyone)
For the sake of argument, please assume we can deliver on a tamper proof stickers for the tires and car. I know that is paramount to the success of the plan..

 

There is no use of a scanner etc.. 

 

Here's the example..

Mike Collins registers for June Sprints and is handed with his tech sticker two runoffs style door stickers that say  " SCCA Hoosier Super Tour Tire  "12345" and  you also get four tire stickers all with "12345' on them for you to apply to he four tires of your choice with instructions on how to clean and prepare the tire surface to accept the sticker as we will only allow one mishap, if you "lose" 2 or more stickers, you will be starting from the back. . 

 

No car stickers can be mounted on clear tape and then on car, must be directly applied to the car.  Tire stickers must be mounted to sidewall of the tire, not the wheel.

 

You are called in for top qualifying say.. They weigh you.. or just do an open hood and trunk inspection.  

They simply look at door and tire stickers and make sure they match.  That is literally zero effort for volunteers and should be very enforceable. No harder than inspecting the height of your car numbers

 

 

Spell out how to cheat it.. (Not getting called in and checked is not beating the system imo. It would be no different than pulling a plate and hoping you weren't called in) That info is just as valuable or more so than the plan implementation itself. If we can deliver on the stickers( I believe we can). I have not found a way to cheat the system 

 

Jim

[Nathan Pring]

Here's the part I'm struggling with - Hoosier is the supplier, we are the customer.  It seems we're trying to overcome a problem bourne by the suppliers product.  If there are tires out there that don't have a significantly larger competitive advantage at 5-6 HCs vs stickers, then shouldn't we be pushing for Hoosier for a product like this and not one that falls of the cliff like an F1 tire?  The stickers seem to be a band-aid solution to a greater problem, which we as the customer are having to deal with.

 

If the goal is to have SM be an affordable racing series and the current problem is people using 2-3 sets of tires on a weekend, then it would seem the problem lies with the tires.    Theoretically the SM8 is going to address this problem right?  If it is, then shouldn't this negate the need for introducing a sticker system?

[Jim Drago]

Here's the part I'm struggling with - Hoosier is the supplier, we are the customer.  It seems we're trying to overcome a problem bourne by the suppliers product.  If there are tires out there that don't have a significantly larger competitive advantage at 5-6 HCs vs stickers, then shouldn't we be pushing for Hoosier for a product like this and not one that falls of the cliff like an F1 tire?  The stickers seem to be a band-aid solution to a greater problem, which we as the customer are having to deal with.

 

If the goal is to have SM be an affordable racing series and the current problem is people using 2-3 sets of tires on a weekend, then it would seem the problem lies with the tires.    Theoretically the SM8 is going to address this problem right?  If it is, then shouldn't this negate the need for introducing a sticker system?

While true I think we have real world problems to address.  First I am not sure any tire fits your scenario of no advantage stickers vs 5-6 session tires.  Even the toyo, new shaved 1/32 is faster than new full tread or 4-5 cycle tread. Several tracks where shave depth and cycles will make the same difference as Hoosier sticker vs 5 session.  

 

We are on contract to Hoosier for at least the next 2.5 years in SCCA. As many have said. I love the tires and the support, just wich they were raceable for more sessions in our cars. 

 

I think a tire that is truly raceable with our cars for 8-10 cycles or more is something we should be pushing for as well, but limiting the number of tires is also a vital part of the strategy to cut costs IMO.  This would also help cut costs and level the playing field in NASA as well.  For whatever reason, teh NASA races I attend are more like regionals and the tire wars aren't present at all.  they are and would be at the Championships which is similar in terms of competition to SCCA super Tours.  I think most will use 3 or more sets varying in age and shave depth. 

[Danny Steyn]

Is it not time to release the new SM8?

[Jim Drago]

Is it not time to release the new SM8?

Testing is not complete

[Nathan Pring]

Is it not time to release the new SM8?

 

Or at least some test results?

[Nathan Pring]

While true I think we have real world problems to address.  First I am not sure any tire fits your scenario of no advantage stickers vs 5-6 session tires.  Even the toyo, new shaved 1/32 is faster than new full tread or 4-5 cycle tread. Several tracks where shave depth and cycles will make the same difference as Hoosier sticker vs 5 session.  

 

We are on contract to Hoosier for at least the next 2.5 years in SCCA. As many have said. I love the tires and the support, just wich they were raceable for more sessions in our cars. 

 

I think a tire that is truly raceable with our cars for 8-10 cycles or more is something we should be pushing for as well, but limiting the number of tires is also a vital part of the strategy to cut costs IMO.  This would also help cut costs and level the playing field in NASA as well.  For whatever reason, teh NASA races I attend are more like regionals and the tire wars aren't present at all.  they are and would be at the Championships which is similar in terms of competition to SCCA super Tours.  I think most will use 3 or more sets varying in age and shave depth. 

 

Personally I'd take the HCs over shaving the RR for outright speed as I'm out to have fun at regionals (the RA-1 I hear is a different beast altogether in regards to shaving).  I guess i'll just have to hold out for the SM8 and hope for the best.  At the moment I'm using RRs to run practice days to offset the tire cost, still on the first set, can't say the same for the Hoosiers.  If someone starts throwing tire money at the regionals, there's no reason stickers wont help as long as it can be administered.

[Mike Collins]

One.... I would NEVER mount the sticker on the outside of the tire sidewall.  I'd only mount it on the inside. Way too much "close" racing that would take a sticker off.... I'm not risking a DQ over a tire rub.

 

That and I am CERTAIN it would not take long for someone to figure out how to move a sticker from one tire to another... or to make duplicate stickers. This is SM, there isn't a competitive driver out there not looking for a mechanical advantage.... some have proven to be willing to take it further than others.

 

I do think Jim's solution is simple and could be effective, I just don't think we have the ability to implement it.

[OrangeCrush86]

Maybe it's possible to skip the CRB and add this requirement directly to the Supps of a Majors race for a trial of the system?

[Jim Drago]

Maybe it's possible to skip the CRB and add this requirement directly to the Supps of a Majors race for a trial of the system?

no, it needs to go through the process.. 

SMAC>CRB>BOD before implementation

[38bfast]

Jim do you have Samples of said stickers? 

[Tom Sager]

One.... I would NEVER mount the sticker on the outside of the tire sidewall.  I'd only mount it on the inside. Way too much "close" racing that would take a sticker off.... I'm not risking a DQ over a tire rub.

 

That and I am CERTAIN it would not take long for someone to figure out how to move a sticker from one tire to another... or to make duplicate stickers. This is SM, there isn't a competitive driver out there not looking for a mechanical advantage.... some have proven to be willing to take it further than others.

 

I do think Jim's solution is simple and could be effective, I just don't think we have the ability to implement it.

 

There are tamper proof labels widely available through a number of label providers which would make it very tough for someone to remove and place on another tire or to duplicate.  If that sticker were shaped so that it can fit low on the sidewall near the wheel it would be less vulnerable to getting "rubbed".  It's not a perfect solution but I think the risks you mention can be greatly reduced. 

[FTodaro]

 

I do think Jim's solution is simple and could be effective, I just don't think we have the ability to implement it.

This is why a one event/weekend test would be a logical next step. to see if it is feasible OR not.