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Poll: tire management (83 member(s) have cast votes)

Do we need a tire management program

  1. yes (73 votes [87.95%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 87.95%

  2. no (6 votes [7.23%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 7.23%

  3. undecided (4 votes [4.82%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.82%

Opinions on proposed program

  1. I like it is as is, no changes (54 votes [65.06%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 65.06%

  2. I don't like it (4 votes [4.82%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.82%

  3. I like it but it needs some work (25 votes [30.12%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 30.12%

Do you agree with the tire replacement part of the proposal?

  1. yes, leave it as is (54 votes [65.06%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 65.06%

  2. no not at all (5 votes [6.02%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.02%

  3. yes I agree but the plan needs work (24 votes [28.92%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 28.92%

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#101
TylerQuance

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I would consider myself budget compared to many. Have never used more than one set of stickers in a weekend since I started racing, don't plan on it with the runoffs as an exception. Generally my strategy is to do Qual1 on 2-4 HC tires from the previous weekend. I use my stickers after that then I have another set of 2-4 session tires ready for next time.

There are also many weekends I haven't bought stickers at all and rummaged for multiple sets of the best I could find which I see has already been brought up.

That said I have never beat some of the guys who use 3 sets in a weekend at a Super Tour so what do I know. My strategy gives me the best shot at it possible though for the smallest investment.

This plan screws me/my system but I will support whatever keeps the class healthy. The draw to this form of racing is to beat the guy you're racing against in equal equipment.

I may request for this to apply to super tour weekends only.
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#102
Jim Drago

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I think this tire limitation proposal could have the negative side effect of not encouraging people running track sessions especially at races that have multiple qualifying sessions.
example: I will not run an afternoon qualifying (only run the morning session with good air) to save my tires for later sessions.

That is a choice you can make. Not sure 8 lap older or newer tires will make that much difference, but your choice and strategy. We don't need all these qualifying sessions anyway... but that is another topic :)
 

For me the biggest cost of running the HST/Majors is Towing, Entry Fees, then tires but that is because I chose to limit the amount of tires i throw at a weekend.  I could be more competitive with new tires every session but I don't choose to. I am OK to be a top 5 rather than compete for 1st place.  I still always have people to run with when I go back to Road America and run my budget strategy although I know I will not be competing for the top spot or maybe not even the podium.  Want to join me Jim? :)

Sure, As soon as you can guarantee me that all in top 10 are in agreement and will hold to it. I DEFINITELY do not use the most of tires compared to most in top 10. But thats why I want to implement some type of limiting plan. It forces all of us to stop acting like spoiled children with unlimited access to the ice cream cone machine.

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#103
Jim Drago

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I would consider myself budget compared to many. Have never used more than one set of stickers in a weekend since I started racing, don't plan on it with the runoffs as an exception. Generally my strategy is to do Qual1 on 2-4 HC tires from the previous weekend. I use my stickers after that then I have another set of 2-4 session tires ready for next time.

There are also many weekends I haven't bought stickers at all and rummaged for multiple sets of the best I could find which I see has already been brought up.

That said I have never beat some of the guys who use 3 sets in a weekend at a Super Tour so what do I know. My strategy gives me the best shot at it possible though for the smallest investment.

This plan screws me/my system but I will support whatever keeps the class healthy. The draw to this form of racing is to beat the guy you're racing against in equal equipment.

I may request for this to apply to super tour weekends only.

Tyler
You qualify on one set of tires 2-4 session. Race on one set of stickers for the two races and then start this cycle again I am assuming? At HST events?
If that is correct, this plan puts you in better shape on tires relative to the field, less the weekends you chose not to buy tires?

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#104
TylerQuance

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Yes Jim that is correct. I use the same strategy for Super Tour weekends. I don't feel like it puts me at a major disadvantage. When I have enough decent sets to not buy some for a divisional majors I would swap around decent stuff all weekend instead of buying new.

This hurts the other guys in my camp too (Bret Snyder and my brother Bryan) who race on the best stuff I have leftover. When they start getting beat by tires/prep instead of driving they will start buying their own. Right now their tire budget = sweat equity and zero money. Bret is getting closer and my brother will be a quick study too. They will both be trying to stretch their dollars until then by swapping around the best they can find all weekend. I recommend this "team" strategy for anyone getting into the sport for their first year especially.

Reiterating that I fully support your plan for Super Tour weekends. CRB letter sent to support this.
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#105
TylerQuance

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My letter:

I am requesting that the tire management program proposed by Jim Drago is only considered for Super Tour weekends please. Not for divisional majors or regionals. Fully support his plan for Super Tour weekends.

The only guys who buy more than one set of tires for divisional majors have more money than sense. Let them (maybe 5-10% of entrants overall, 0% of entrants in my division) spend what they want.
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#106
RWP80000

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Yes Jim that is correct. I use the same strategy for Super Tour weekends. I don't feel like it puts me at a major disadvantage. When I have enough decent sets to not buy some for a divisional majors I would swap around decent stuff all weekend instead of buying new.

This hurts the other guys in my camp too (Bret Snyder and my brother Bryan) who race on the best stuff I have leftover. When they start getting beat by tires/prep instead of driving they will start buying their own. Right now their tire budget = sweat equity and zero money. Bret is getting closer and my brother will be a quick study too. They will both be trying to stretch their dollars until then by swapping around the best they can find all weekend. I recommend this "team" strategy for anyone getting into the sport for their first year especially.

Reiterating that I fully support your plan for Super Tour weekends. CRB letter sent to support this.

 

I think Tyler is on to something here that many people may not really be taking into consideration.  We may well end up increasing the cost to many of those getting started or participating in the mid-pack who make use of access to low heat cycled tires available at a significant discount as a method to control their racing budget.  If we go with the one set limitation we may very well eliminate this supply of tires with everyone on the same rotation program and the only tires available to those on a budget being well up the scale of useable heat cycles.  I know we have made good use of picking up some very low H.C. tires at a significant discount to help keep our tire budget down.

 

My biggest issue is with the added bureaucracy of managing and policing such a program.  I don't know about you but with the limited number of sessions and time on the track I need to be spending my time analyzing data and making adjustments accordingly, not chasing around getting stickers and inspections.  As Tyler mentioned, we frequently practice and qualify on 2-4 heat cycle tires and may select a sticker to use for a prime condition qualifying session, using those or possibly others for the race depending on our qualifying results. We have run and won at Willow Springs (which some considered to be a "sticker" track) without ever putting on a "sticker" strictly from a budgetary standpoint.  I could work with (we effectively already do) a ONE set of Stickers per weekend rule but do not see the need to have others involved in how or why I cycle out our already multi-HC tires.  We have never been in a position to outspend those who have the resources so we have to work on improving our game through preparation and skill development while taking advantage where and when we can of those who can and do spend lavishly while making our 5+ HC tires available locally for the budget minded.

 

Rich Powers



#107
Jim Drago

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My biggest issue is with the added bureaucracy of managing and policing such a program.  I don't know about you but with the limited number of sessions and time on the track I need to be spending my time analyzing data and making adjustments accordingly, not chasing around getting stickers and inspections.  

 

Rich Powers

Rich

If this is your biggest problem, you don't have a problem.  I think you are bringing something in that is simply not there.  Short of you putting stickers on four tires.. There is no additional time.. after that it is no different than a restrictor plate. Think of all the time you will save r/r tires with the multiple sets you are cycling in and out :) Now you only have to work around 4 tires. 


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#108
Jim Drago

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Strange that of the five no votes, two are smac members whose job it is to steward the class and do what is best for the class? Tyler was a no vote who sent in a letter supporting the program IN HST.   Seems strange to me that SMAC members are against an idea that an overwhelming majority of those that voted here are for. 


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#109
TylerQuance

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Strange that of the five no votes, two are smac members whose job it is to steward the class and do what is best for the class? Tyler was a no vote who sent in a letter supporting the program IN HST. Seems strange to me that SMAC members are against an idea that an overwhelming majority of those that voted here are for.

Strange to me too. Let's urge the CRB to roll this out for Super Tour and see how it goes, I think it is a fantastic idea for those weekends.

I guess my position would have made me a Yes vote to the first question, my mistake. The No vote was only because applying this to divisional majors is solving a problem I don't think exists for most of us (my division for sure).

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#110
P.McCammon

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I race exclusively NASA because I can buy Toyos with my Amex points, so I'm not going to cast a vote.

I will say I agree with Tyler. I think it's a great idea for runoffs/super tours but probably not necessary for divisionals\majors. If it does trickle down I probably never will race SCCA.

#111
RWP80000

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Rich

If this is your biggest problem, you don't have a problem.  I think you are bringing something in that is simply not there.  Short of you putting stickers on four tires.. There is no additional time.. after that it is no different than a restrictor plate. Think of all the time you will save r/r tires with the multiple sets you are cycling in and out :) Now you only have to work around 4 tires. 

Jim,

 I am OK with a simple "kiss" tire rule if that is what the class wants and gets but this topic was a recent discussion within SMAC and there were plenty of things floated that were quite time consuming and even as constrictive as to having to have your sticker tires mounted at the track or having to have your tires marked by Tech. There were lots of issue and concerns kicked around. 

 

My "No" vote here is because I am mostly concerned with the unintended consequences of this proposal and feel it is being presented as a one sided "cant lose bet".   Also, as a two man operation with plenty of tasks to do during the event, I do not want a complicated bureaucratic process that maybe starts out simple but ends up getting complicated or ends up actually hurting the participants we propose to help as in "I am from the Government and I am here to help you."  Have we thought this through or is there a better approach to achieve the desired goal?  Should we be developing a whole list of proposals to address the concerns of class participation and costs then prioritizing those ideas?

 

Here's a thought.  Since we want every one to run on one set of tires why not include the purchase cost for a set of tires as part of the HST entry fee with that price being say 80% of going rate while also including mounting and balancing.  You might even make it so that you could buy two sets of tires at this price. Sure the cost of the entry goes up but if you need to buy a new set of tires anyway and can get them at 20% off you may now entice more people to enter the event as you have just reduced the tire cost for everyone while potentially increasing participation (especially if you were allowed to buy two sets).  Part of the cost of the 20% tire savings could possibly come from cutting back on the tires awarded if the supplier feels they can't contain the cost. I could see this increasing HST participation and possibly even the Majors as getting two sets of tires at a reduced rate would help support the other Conference non-HST events or even Regionals if that is how someone decides to qualify for the Runoffs.

 

I am for doing all we can to ensure the continued success of this class and want to seriously look at all suggestions but think we need to approach this carefully while looking at a wide range of ideas.  While it may be easy to fire up this crowd for a magic elixir, caution should be the word until we know it's side affects  As always the Devil is in the details.

 

Rich Powers 



#112
Jim Drago

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Jim,
 I am OK with a simple "kiss" tire rule if that is what the class wants and gets but this topic was a recent discussion within SMAC and there were plenty of things floated that were quite time consuming and even as constrictive as to having to have your sticker tires mounted at the track or having to have your tires marked by Tech. There were lots of issue and concerns kicked around. 
 
My "No" vote here is because I am mostly concerned with the unintended consequences of this proposal and feel it is being presented as a one sided "cant lose bet".   Also, as a two man operation with plenty of tasks to do during the event, I do not want a complicated bureaucratic process that maybe starts out simple but ends up getting complicated or ends up actually hurting the participants we propose to help as in "I am from the Government and I am here to help you."  Have we thought this through or is there a better approach to achieve the desired goal?  Should we be developing a whole list of proposals to address the concerns of class participation and costs then prioritizing those ideas?
 
Here's a thought.  Since we want every one to run on one set of tires why not include the purchase cost for a set of tires as part of the HST entry fee with that price being say 80% of going rate while also including mounting and balancing.  You might even make it so that you could buy two sets of tires at this price. Sure the cost of the entry goes up but if you need to buy a new set of tires anyway and can get them at 20% off you may now entice more people to enter the event as you have just reduced the tire cost for everyone while potentially increasing participation (especially if you were allowed to buy two sets).  Part of the cost of the 20% tire savings could possibly come from cutting back on the tires awarded if the supplier feels they can't contain the cost. I could see this increasing HST participation and possibly even the Majors as getting two sets of tires at a reduced rate would help support the other Conference non-HST events or even Regionals if that is how someone decides to qualify for the Runoffs.
 
I am for doing all we can to ensure the continued success of this class and want to seriously look at all suggestions but think we need to approach this carefully while looking at a wide range of ideas.  While it may be easy to fire up this crowd for a magic elixir, caution should be the word until we know it's side affects  As always the Devil is in the details.
 
Rich Powers

Rich
There are ALWAYS unintended consequences. I understand that. You mention complications etc that came up. Perhaps you can share as so far none you listed seemed to really be a problem? You are further complicating what should be a simple process by adding the cost of tires to the entry. People may not chose to run new tires? Your suggestion forces that I am trying to avoid that.

Again, my suggestion is a simple one. 4 stickers for whatever four tires you want.. you apply the stickers on the tires. from there forward it is no different than than checking a restrictor plate. I understand things can come up, but so far other than saying this could be a logistics nightmare etc.. I have not seen one valid post of why it would be hard to do?

I can see and understand that competitors would need to change their approach to tires for the weekend on both sides of the spectrum, but not convinced that is a bad thing. I 100% support your mentioning the law of unintended consequences, we have seen that time and time again with new rules. I would love to see more talk about what we could be missing there.

Good dialogue.

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#113
Pat Mcg

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If there is a concern... why not adapt it for one event and see what happens..   Then adjust from lessons learned after event.  If you sit around and wait for a perfect solution there will never be a one..  IMO..


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#114
TylerQuance

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If there is a concern... why not adapt it for one event and see what happens..   Then adjust from lessons learned after event.  If you sit around and wait for a perfect solution there will never be a one..  IMO..

BINGO


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#115
Justin Casey

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Voted. 

 

I occasionally race with SCCA, mainly Majors or SuperTour events, and going in I know that I'll be at a disadvantage since I can only afford 1 set of sticker tires more often than not. Regardless of whether the SM8 is an improvement when it becomes the next spec compound, I think this management plan will help encourage more racers to show up as others have stated. More entries makes all parties involved happy. 

 

In retrospect, racing has and unfortunately always will be about who has the biggest bank account to help them acquire the best equipment/tools for success along with seat time. That being said, this plan again will help level the playing field a bit more imo.

 

Lastly, if the additional price of the decals that go onto the tires as well as the inspection process itself can be incorporated into the standard compliance fee, that would be the icing on the cake. If an additional fee is needed (which I assume will be as nothing in life is free), I think an additional $5-10 per entry would be fair.


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#116
Tom Sager

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Jim's proposal will limit what one CAN SPEND on tires which is good.  It helps everyone economically who presently invests in more than 1 new set of tires for an event and helps those limiting themselves to 1 new set per event to be on a level playing field tire-wise.  Still IMO 1 new set per event is too costly for many racers that want to compete.  The change to a more consistent tire limits what most racers WILL SPEND on tires. That benefits the class as a whole. 


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#117
Caveman-kwebb99

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Jim's proposal will limit what one CAN SPEND on tires which is good.  It helps everyone economically who presently invests in more than 1 new set of tires for an event and helps those limiting themselves to 1 new set per event to be on a level playing field tire-wise.  Still IMO 1 new set per event is too costly for many racers that want to compete.  The change to a more consistent tire limits what most racers WILL SPEND on tires. That benefits the class as a whole. 

 

If that is true imagine how wonderful this program will work when your limited to one set and the tires donlt fall off much...  Seems like a no brainer then for sure


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#118
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My suggestion is name this program after Ralph and remove all mention on Dargo and then lets vote it through!


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#119
Jim Drago

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My suggestion is name this program after Ralph and remove all mention on Dargo and then lets vote it through!

Its official.. Let's call it the RPTMP and roll with it!

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#120
Tom Sager

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My suggestion is name this program after Ralph and remove all mention on Dargo and then lets vote it through!

 

You think the clandestine SMAC and even more covert CRB are gonna let you vote?  :banana:


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