128 replies to this topic

[trimless]

Mike, we met briefly at Nasa Nationals last year. I for one was pleased to see the level of tech raised at the event and look forward to more of the same this year!

[Alex Bolanos]

As suggested in the 14 yr old bearing grease thread, tech at NASA FL is limited to plate and weight. I too was impressed with the amount of scrutiny at the NASA Nationals and I'm sure that the issue with lack of NASA tech is largely isolated to FL region. I'm working with the NASA FL officials to try and help the situation and make any suggestions I can.

[5X Racing]

I understand the frustrations in and around NASA FL, as Jim B and I tried very hard in 2011 to have good tech at the NASA FL races but the powers that be within the club just did not have the manpower and financial means to support what we wanted to do, which was essentially the easily checked things on Steve's list. It would have been very difficult for us to perform all of the checks on several cars by ourselves, which is what would have had to be done as there was only a skeleton crew running the events, every other official/volunteer was either on track at the time we needed them or busy with something else. Pulling a volunteer to help with SM tech would have left a hole in another job, maybe a more important one such as the pace car driver or timing and scoring. It was a tough situation at best that I wasn't prepared to handle as race director. Hell, we had a hard time even pulling off a weight/plate/hood-up style impound because we both competed in the class. So as soon as we got off track, we had to jump out of the cars, take off our helmets, and put on our "director" hats to perform the post race impound. If we had just 1 or 2 volunteers that were assigned to us (preferably 3rd party, non-biased), we could have made it happen easily. We had big optimistic plans, couldn't pull them off unfortunately because of the reasons above.

I do think there is a light at the end of the tunnel though, NASA FL has a new regional director that is aware of the problem, and seems willing to confront it from what I understand, and with National backing, so I think they can hire somebody if need be to do a proper teardown (local SM engine builder or SM shop owner would be a good person to do a thorough check in my opinion), hire a mobile dyno to weed out the anomalies, or recruit the appropriate volunteers to make sure they have the manpower to support what the new SM director wants to do to get things back in order at their events. Hopefully things get sorted out, there's a bunch of good guys in NASA FL. Now only if we can get this tire situation sorted out so I only need one brand for all SM events!

[Alex Bolanos]

I understand the frustrations in and around NASA FL, as Jim B and I tried very hard in 2011 to have good tech at the NASA FL races but the powers that be within the club just did not have the manpower and financial means to support what we wanted to do, which was essentially the easily checked things on Steve's list. It would have been very difficult for us to perform all of the checks on several cars by ourselves, which is what would have had to be done as there was only a skeleton crew running the events, every other official/volunteer was either on track at the time we needed them or busy with something else. Pulling a volunteer to help with SM tech would have left a hole in another job, maybe a more important one such as the pace car driver or timing and scoring. It was a tough situation at best that I wasn't prepared to handle as race director. Hell, we had a hard time even pulling off a weight/plate/hood-up style impound because we both competed in the class. So as soon as we got off track, we had to jump out of the cars, take off our helmets, and put on our "director" hats to perform the post race impound. If we had just 1 or 2 volunteers that were assigned to us (preferably 3rd party, non-biased), we could have made it happen easily. We had big optimistic plans, couldn't pull them off unfortunately because of the reasons above.

I do think there is a light at the end of the tunnel though, NASA FL has a new regional director that is aware of the problem, and seems willing to confront it from what I understand, and with National backing, so I think they can hire somebody if need be to do a proper teardown (local SM engine builder or SM shop owner would be a good person to do a thorough check in my opinion), hire a mobile dyno to weed out the anomalies, or recruit the appropriate volunteers to make sure they have the manpower to support what the new SM director wants to do to get things back in order at their events. Hopefully things get sorted out, there's a bunch of good guys in NASA FL. Now only if we can get this tire situation sorted out so I only need one brand for all SM events!

Well said, you racing this year?

[5X Racing]

Well said, you racing this year?

Thanks! Yep, we're planning an April return to racing at the SCCA Roebling event then Daytona the week after. Both cars went up on jack stands after the NASA FL 2011 season ender and went through rehab. We'll be primarily focusing on SCCA this year but will dabble in NASA with the PT class wearing Hoosiers (hate the new different tire rules between the two org's...)

[LarryKing]

What I tried to point out earlier is that lack of tech is not isolated to Florida. In the GreatLakes weight is all I've ever seen.

+1 on tire brand - I'm passing on NASA this year because budget does not permit multiple tire brands/additional wheel sets/constant mounting and balancing, and I prefer to race on Hoosiers.

PS: one of the problems I've had with NASA for years (in the GL) is the lack of workers and empty flag stands. Not good.

PSS: No I'm not hiding anything but I have no desire to face a tear-down on an average race weekend.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

In NASA GL's defense they do run the dyno for tech... I think its a huge waste of time but most people think it finds cheaters. I think it finds dumb cheaters, and that is only if the dyno operator is looking for things rather than just making pulls. They do not test for A/F on the NASA dyno, which would help find a cheater ECU, nor do I think they keep track of where the Rev Limit is on each car. I was asked what to do, since the tach was broken in the car... Well if there is a Rev limiter you just go till you hit it! The dyno oportator cant be responsible for damages to someone who has a bumped rev limiter. The car before me was never taken to the rev limit, not because of the Car owner but because the dyno guy was not and cant be familiar with the rev limit of each model of car, and other classes do not have to run the stock limit. It would take time to train the dyno operator, to be familiar with each model of car. The car before mine was a 1.6, he was not cheating, nor am I implying such in the slightest, but if he was and the dyno operator took it to 6900rpm and stopped he would not find a bumped limiter. therefor the dyno has already been defeated by just dumb luck!

Leave the dyno for tuning, and actually take things apart on the cars to check cheats. It is simple all that needs to be done is mark the parts from Saturday so they cannot be tampered with, let them run again on Sunday then pull what you need to at the end of Sunday to tech both the Sat and Sun races. I personally dont believe there is cheating going on up front in NASA GL's. There was only one car that ever had very high HP advantage on the field , but what would you expect from an engine that was taken to Road America for the runoffs and purchased straight from the track by a GL's driver. The car has since come back to earth, with an engine swap. Again that car was not illegal, it was just one bad ass mother. It would have raised eyebrows at the time had it been put on the dyno, but it shouldnt have raised any eyebrows just because the rest of the field didnt have the same quality engine.

And furthermore, SCCA GL's isnt any better for tech... I have seen blatant cheating at an SCCA regional (both ITspectacular, as well as the fun race at the Grand Am weekend). When an in class car just pulls away on the back straight when you come out of the keyhole on their bumper in perfect drafting possition, left me Breathless! And on Grand Am weekend the drivers were all told before hand that there would be no tech at all! No weight or plates no need to even drive back to tech, just race and put it away. Me and several other looked at each other like WTF? Even a drive through on weight and plate is a deterent, cause you never know when they may just look a little further...

Best tech I have seen other than at an SCCA national, and NASA nationals, is NASA SE! Everytime I go to ATL something different is getting checked, thats the way it is supposed to be.

[FTodaro]

Its pick on NASA day, what is the penalty in NASA for being found out of compliance? I don't know that I have seen that spelled out anyplace?

Is it as heavy as the Passing under yellow rule is going to be, first time DQ plus one race suspension 2nd time One year suspension. I am not arguing with the safety and validity of the New Yellow flag rule but just wondered if the penalty for cheating is in line with it?

[Glenn]

Its pick on NASA day, what is the penalty in NASA for being found out of compliance? I don't know that I have seen that spelled out anyplace?

Is it as heavy as the Passing under yellow rule is going to be, first time DQ plus one race suspension 2nd time One year suspension. I am not arguing with the safety and validity of the New Yellow flag rule but just wondered if the penalty for cheating is in line with it?

At their championship the steward had complete latitude to make the punishment what they wanted! EG, IIRC one care had all times tossed when found noncompliant on the last day before the race.

[LarryKing]

on Grand Am weekend the drivers were all told before hand that there would be no tech at all! No weight or plates no need to even drive back to tech, just race and put it away. Me and several other looked at each other like WTF?

That was a 'fun race' that didn't count for anything, i.e., no regional champ points. I agree that the officials should not have announced no tech.

May I reiterate that I have no interest in attending a regional event that includes invasive tech.

[FTodaro]

May I reiterate that I have no interest in attending a regional event that includes invasive tech.

Now why would you say that, this sport being what it is, needs a some type of a threat to obtain compliance.(maybe I should ask you what you mean by invasive, We are not talking about a tear down. Tech is just a part of life, You get your speed checked every day on the way to work. I have no problem with it. I think it would be just as effective to do some spot checking, that keeps folks on there toes.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

You dont need to tear down your whole engine to have great tech, Not that hard to pull the Intake or valve cover to check a few things. not hard to check for a flywheel either and pressure plate. Not hard to check the weight of a wheel off any car either. there is always a tire guy there and the sactioning body could work out a tear off and remount at a very minimal cost, a hell of lot cheaper than a dyno pull. plus the 01-05 model should be checked for the proper intake!!!!!! Drago was going to post some pics of how to spot that cheat. Coming off ATL dbl last week, there were only a hand full of cars that were not 99's but Imost everyone left their hoods up at one time or another. Beware of the guy that never leaves his hood up or slaps it down the moment someone is coming.

The main question is should only the Top4-5 be teched or should a random finishing possition also be checked at each race say #13 this raceand #22 next race and maybe #7 the following race. I think if there is some cheating going on it is likely back in the pack, as there is no Tech at all for them.

[dtfastbear]

I think the key word there was "invasive". I don't think anyone is opposed to spot checking stuff, but pulling heads at a regional is definitely going to be a turnoff to casual racers. Everyone's definition of invasive is going to be different, though. I'd be upset to pull a head but would have no issues with pulling a tranny or shocks... Others who pay someone else to align their car would see removing a shock as a big deal.

Like most things in life, it's a compromise. We all want a fair fight, but there's a cost to enforcing that.

Dean

[Alex Bolanos]

<snip>... left me Breathless! <snip>

Hahahahahaha

[90ailx]

<sup>Ok, our SM program was non existent until John Adamczyk and Jim Blaisdell came over and brought about 10 cars with them. It was a great group and there was no issue with compliance. Obviously as competition grows, so do problems. We had very little experience with compliance verification on SM's. Since NASA Florida is now run by the national office, we have much greater recources available to us. No one expected the problems we had at the last event, and quite frankly it cought us off guard. I'm not accusing ANYONE of cheating, but we did not have a plan in place to enforce post race Tech beyond plates and weight. I take responsibilty for this and Jon Felton and myself have been in contact with National NASA Officials to ensure we are prepared going forward. We do not want our region to be labeled as anything goes. Having said that, a plan is in place to be able to do a more invasive post race inspection on SM's. We will have various tools including a whistler at our disposal. Our goal is that all Florida competitors bring class legal cars since I would much rather hang out with fellow racers on a saturday night than tear down a car.

Patrick Wehmeyer
NASA FL Chief of Tech</sup>

[Danny Steyn]

. Beware of the guy that never leaves his hood up or slaps it down the moment someone is coming.

Also beware the car where there are a whole bunch of team guys obscuring the view when the crew pulls off the intake, or removes the plate.......

Still bothers me when in impound, tech tells the driver's crew to pull out the restrictor, but no-one from tech is watching the process.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Also beware the car where there are a whole bunch of team guys obscuring the view when the crew pulls off the intake, or removes the plate.......

Still bothers me when in impound, tech tells the driver's crew to pull out the restrictor, but no-one from tech is watching the process.

That is a good point! I have not seen this first hand since I have limited exeirience on the SCCA nats, so I have not witnessed this myself. I have had unfettered access to your car many times. moslty because I am under the same tent sometimes. Your car is always impecable and nobody ever seems to ever be worried that I am even looking at it. Hood left open sometimes, and I would not be afraid to pop the hood on my own, and I more than appreciate that, we all push the limits or we would not be running the times we are. Pushing limits is one thing, pushing blatantly past the points is another. Anyone is welcome to peek under my hood anytime although I am not one of the top 20 in the country, so not sure there is much to be learned by looking under any hood, without disadembly to some degree. But I truly believe the top 15-20 in the ATL national are complient in any tech shed. One thing that impresses me consistenly from my year racing nationals is the quality of the driving, from Manning and Bednarz, to Fowler, Sandin, Drago, Charbs and the Mexicans, to the Euros in Wis! Even you with your with your silver shoe, rear bumper hitting self!

[getfast]

^{I take responsibilty for this and Jon Felton and myself have been in contact with National NASA Officials to ensure we are prepared going forward. We do not want our region to be labeled as anything goes. Having said that, a plan is in place to be able to do a more invasive post race inspection on SM's. We will have various tools including a whistler at our disposal. Our goal is that all Florida competitors bring class legal cars since I would much rather hang out with fellow racers on a saturday night than tear down a car.}

Couldn't have said it better myself, and I take responsibility as well. We have plans in place now, and things will be better soon. Thanks to all who support our program!

Jon Felton
Director, NASA Florida

[LarryKing]

Now why would you say that, this sport being what it is

Because this is my hobby not my career. Because I stick to regionals and run for fun. Because if someone feels the need to cheat to win a plaque or be the attendance champ - they can have it, and if it's won by cheating it's meaningless.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Because this is my hobby not my career. Because I stick to regionals and run for fun. Because if someone feels the need to cheat to win a plaque or be the attendance champ - they can have it, and if it's won by cheating it's meaningless.

In principal I totaly agree, but there is always someone who will cheat... I never come to the race weekend to lose, losing in SM is just something everyone does, it is much to competitve to win all the time. But losing to a cheater sucks the worst and it chases people away from the class... Tech in a neccessary evil, I think if there was more Tech there would for sure be less cheating...