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#41
Danny Steyn

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May I reiterate that I have no interest in attending a regional event that includes invasive tech.


M&S - Fully understand your priorities, but see Kyle's post above. If there is NO invasive tech EVER, then someone who wants to blatantly cheat will continue to cheat, destroy your and everyone else's fun, and the car counts will disappear. Tech is there to keep the everyone honest, and to ensure that we all get under the tent and share a beer after the race is over.
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#42
LarryKing

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I use to think the SCCA would be better served to eliminate the national/regional distinction - similar to NASA.

I think I've changed my mind - having regional events gives the casual racer a venue for low-key competition. And I really believe you scare off those casual participants if they think they will face a teardown when instead they just want to relax.

Moot point anyway. There just aren't enough volunteers to support this level of tech at most regional events.
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#43
AJ Roderick

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I don't think they are saying a tear down for a regional event, more so just some kind of tech. Many times the tech has been weight, then sit around for 10 minutes and we are told we can leave.
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#44
FTodaro

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I agree with what has been said, we all do this for fun, but it is an important point, that if cheating overtakes the sport, it will drive people away who cannot or will not participate in the arms race.

All I want is an advantage over the other guy, but a legal one.

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#45
dstevens

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What do you guys condiser evasive? I consider dropping a crank or clutch evasive. Something from inside the engine. I don't consider pulling a head to be evasive or removing the valve cover to be evasive. I think tech in that manner should be top 5 only, at a minimum top 3.

It sounds like the lack of staff is more the culprit than lack of desire. My story is as I'm going through treatment for a couple of different maladies the meds used aren't conducive to wheel to wheel racing, or even driving fast. I'm to the point where I could pass both physicals and those knuckleheads nice folks in Daytona Bach have already issued me a local feature license. :noidea: (it's the same price as a crew license so I figured what the hell... might need to shake down a car) We're figuring 8-15 weeks at this point.

I was going to don some whites and volunteer on the tech line. But the costs are prohibitive being I'm 200-300 miles from the nearest races. No big deal if I'm racing, big deal to go hang out and check weight stickers on cars .That's between $150-200 in fuel with the way prices are now. And I don't camp. So I'm down $300 to go and not be sure if I really am going to do any tech. The decision to go back and crew circle track was easy. The sponsor (sponsors are companies that aren't owned by the racer that give you money to race :bash: :butthead: I joke, I joke.... :king: ) pays the back gate fee and the team pics up dinner and we split whatever we have left at the end of the year. Which isn't much and not why I'm doing it.

I'd love to be able to say "Steyn, let's have a look at that pressure plate" or "Drago, bring your crank to the tech trailer"... Seriously, all kidding aside I would like to be the guy that finds a funky ECU on a car where dad is living vicariously through his kid though the kid has skills. Perhaps the regions and national need to direct a more focused effort for tech volunteers. Local vo-tech, community college, maybe some tuner car kids or DE folk with automotive experience. Give them a free DE for volunteering for the weekend. You could do that with all volunteers, not just tech.

#46
john mueller

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We had very little experience with compliance verification on SM's. Since NASA Florida is now run by the national office, we have much greater recources available to us. No one expected the problems we had at the last event, and quite frankly it cought us off guard. I'm not accusing ANYONE of cheating, but we did not have a plan in place to enforce post race Tech beyond plates and weight. I take responsibilty for this and Jon Felton and myself have been in contact with National NASA Officials to ensure we are prepared going forward.

We do not want our region to be labeled as anything goes. Having said that, a plan is in place to be able to do a more invasive post race inspection on SM's. We will have various tools including a whistler at our disposal. Our goal is that all Florida competitors bring class legal cars since I would much rather hang out with fellow racers on a saturday night than tear down a car.

Patrick Wehmeyer
NASA FL Chief of Tech

Couldn't have said it better myself, and I take responsibility as well. We have plans in place now, and things will be better soon. Thanks to all who support our program!

Jon Felton
Director, NASA Florida



Thanks for chiming in Patrick & Jon.

Regardless what is/was going on or not in the video that raised all this interest, Patrick's post is spot-on... It's a delicate balance between compliance and fun, especially starting at very little tech. Over the past few days I've been involved & cc'ed on several conversations supports the desire and resources are in pace to begin ramping up tech in FL. Equipment has been requested/ordered and training will follow.

A more uniform tech process from NASA region-to-region has been one of the big things on my list from the beginning of when I accepted this gig. The day after I started on the job (mid Sept 2010) two issues have monopolized my time:
  • Slow the 99 while reducing it's weight - NASA's breakway in 2011 proved to be rough, but I feel was good for the class in the long run.
  • I saw a need to develop a complete SM shock testing procedure, not just specs - I'm almost done with it, just a few more things to confirm.
This stuff takes time but please know NASA 'National' is hearing us and is committed to doing what is right.
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#47
john mueller

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As always if NASA will have me, I will be back at the National Championships again. I think the competitors have enjoyed the level of tech that bring to this exciting event.


I bet I can make that happen again B)
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#48
john mueller

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What I tried to point out earlier is that lack of tech is not isolated to Florida. In the GreatLakes weight is all I've ever seen.

+1 on tire brand - I'm passing on NASA this year because budget does not permit multiple tire brands/additional wheel sets/constant mounting and balancing, and I prefer to race on Hoosiers.

PS: one of the problems I've had with NASA for years (in the GL) is the lack of workers and empty flag stands. Not good.

PSS: No I'm not hiding anything but I have no desire to face a tear-down on an average race weekend.


(Moose, this is not a reply to you... This post sums up several very nicely)

Once I finish the NASA SM Shock testing procedure documents I will develop a NASA Regional SM Tech Manual. It may take me a year to finish but I'll get it done. (remember this is a volunteer position guys :) )
  • Tires? Really??? You knuckleheads nice people just have to have something to complain about.
  • Email your safety concerns to the NASA Regional Director (the big cheese), I'm sure something can be done. (CC me if you want)
  • I find it difficult to believe a motor is going to get tore-down in any region... You may have to do some minor stuff but pulling the crank or even a head would be surprising.

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#49
LarryKing

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Tires? Really??? You knuckleheads nice people just have to have something to complain about.


Not a complaint - an economic reality.

Evasive tech - when you refuse to open your hood.
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#50
Jim Drago

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I'd love to be able to say "Steyn, let's have a look at that pressure plate" or "Drago, bring your crank to the tech trailer"...


If it is all the same, I would rather give you the pressure plate, let Steyn do the crank. :) Although mine is coming out in next day or so if you want to look :(
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#51
Caveman-kwebb99

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(Moose, this is not a reply to you... This post sums up several very nicely)

Once I finish the NASA SM Shock testing procedure documents I will develop a NASA Regional SM Tech Manual. It may take me a year to finish but I'll get it done. (remember this is a volunteer position guys :) )

  • Tires? Really??? You knuckleheads nice people just have to have something to complain about.
  • Email your safety concerns to the NASA Regional Director (the big cheese), I'm sure something can be done. (CC me if you want)
  • I find it difficult to believe a motor is going to get tore-down in any region... You may have to do some minor stuff but pulling the crank or even a head would be surprising.


Mueller in Ohio we dont have knuckleheads, we have Moose Knuckles LOL
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#52
LarryKing

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In Ohio, Webb's mind is in the crotch. :butthead: :P
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#53
cpdenis

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Sealed engine from a certified and bonded tech center. I wouldn't know how to correctly replace the timing belt if I removed it for tech. It took me over 8 hours to put my engine back in after I received it from Rossini.. I would rather pay a little extra and have it sealed, than have to take anything apart or put it back together incorrectly, especially that I'm doing this to relax. It's time consuming and difficult for me. I'm willing to take all the peripherals off. Like MS says you win and your cheating, good for you. This is a hobby.

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#54
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Ok, our SM program was non existent until John Adamczyk and Jim Blaisdell came over and brought about 10 cars with them. It was a great group and there was no issue with compliance. Obviously as competition grows, so do problems.


Thanks Pat, I appreciate this. Good post, SM is very tough to maintain, and when kept fun and honest like we had it in 2010-2011 it's the best class out there in terms of fun vs cost factor. You guys will get it wrangled in, and I am jealous as we didn't have the resources to do that when I was in office!

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#55
dstevens

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No disrespect to CP but the fact you don't wrench shouldn't impact the rest of the group. Learn, or hire someone. Tech and teardown is a fact of racing. I was joking about Danny and Jim's teardown (but dead serious about that FL car that is able to rev "stock" to 7400-7500). I hate to be the Anvil of Reality â„¢ but that's racing. For some of you folks arrive and drive or hiring a track support crew might be a better option. If you are going to do your own wrenching, hobby racing involves some sort of mechanical aptitude. Many first year karters don't recognize this and quit because while it's a hobby, a lot of the time it is not easy.

I'ved raced sealed engine programs and even if there is a single supplier there will be variances between different builds. I adds to tht cost of racing. For that added cost you could hire track support. Not counting the penalty for those of us that do the work but now have to pay someone to do what we could do for the cost of parts. I've expertienced it in Rotax Max karting, Legends and "602" Chevy sealed circle track engines (602 are the last 3 digits of the part number, the displacement is 350, sealed intake to pan, common in street stock and limited late model) Even then, that doesn't mean parity. Look at the stink at the end of last season in the sealed SSM class. The guy passed the dyno compliance at the top of the season. By the end, seals still intact he was lapping with the unsealed SMs. He said he did some tweaks, above the seal but to my knowledge never shared them. I HATE claiming rules but I'd rather see a claimer than a sealed engine class. Though I'd rather have neither.

If racers want a sealed engine class that's fine. But don't seal SM just because some guys aren't able to do thier own work or get a car and the driving part in sync enough to run in front.

#56
cpdenis

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DStevens, no disrespect taken. I used to be an authorized Rotax Max sealing service center. I used to do the work myself. Ive built everything from FY to Jica's to Icas. I'm exaggerating when I say I couldn't put a timing belt back on, but I'd rather not. What would be wrong with me paying the sealing fee so that I don't have to deal with the tech on a weekend where I'm there to enjoy driving, the car, the track the people. Internals could be sealed, peripherals teched. If they want to check cam lobs, here's my passport. If your isn't, you get to take it apart.
Today there are variances, I'm not complaining I don't have the best motor. Sealed or not the sealed, the haves are generally going to have and the have nots will have what they can afford.
It is ludicrous to think that any system will ever yield exact numbers for everyone. Even if we reach 130HP and 115lbs of torque for all, the power delivery will never be the same.
CP

#57
dstevens

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What would be wrong with me paying the sealing fee so that I don't have to deal with the tech on a weekend where I'm there to enjoy driving, the car, the track the people. Internals could be sealed, peripherals teched. If they want to check cam lobs, here's my passport. If your isn't, you get to take it apart.


So I take it optional, not required? I could get behind that. We've got a car in a class like that now, use the 602 or build to the track/NASCAR rules. But that still doesn't stop them from breaking the seals and having a look if they think something is up. A Chevy dealer in Vegas can sell them but the nearest sealer is in So Cal. The valve covers aren't sealed so they can still measure the valve train but everything else is and there is an inspection port in the pan and tech has a borescope to peak around the bottom end or in a plug hole to see if your internals are OK.

I'd go for an either or on the sealing. It seems like a reasonable compromise. For me, I'd opt for track support rather than a seal, but to each his own.

#58
Jamz14

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I have to agree with dstevens on the sealed motor program. I have come out of the jr rotax sealed engine program with my son and I can say a couple of things about it;

1. In theory a great idea
2. Sealed doesn't mean no cheating. Being an "authorized" sealing shop doesn't guarantee integrity. And sometimes because the engine is sealed, there is an assumption that it is legal so no need to check it. Very easy to re-seal an engine outside of an authorized shop. And most "authorized shops have shop drivers. Hardly unbiased and neutral. Those shop drivers will always receive parts on the preferred side of tolerances. This is racing.
3. Sealing doesn't mean no tech and no tear down. First time I was called to tech with a sealed engine, I watched as they cut the seals and made us remove the piston. Then handed back the engine in parts in a box. I naively asked if they were going to reseal it for me now that they verified it. They laughed and said I had to send it back to the sealing shop and pay to have it re sealed.
4. Sealing doesn't control costs. Watched kids and their crazy parents spend 1/4 million dollars on a karting program for jr. They would buy 5 motors just to blueprint one.

I also agree with dstevens in that if you are going to do this sport, either build some mechanical aptitude, or be prepared to pay for a wrench. I am my sons wrench. I had only a little bit of experience before getting into this with my son but nothing like what is required to be competitive either in cars or karts.. And wrenching is only half of it. Learning set up is a big learning curve, as well as trying to coach the sometimes unappreciative kid. In my opinion if you do not want to learn and do these things, I wonder why you are racing in the first place. They have track days for guys that just want to go drive and have fun. Nothing prevents you from having fun competition on an open track day with your buddies or from running AutoX.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like having to spend my after race time tearing down a kart/car for the scrutineers. But I do accept that is sometimes necessary. Just like anything that is rewarding, there are aspects that probably suck. Right now I spend every free minute after work in the garage trying to get a car built in time to take the grid in May. I miss my wife, a warm couch, a TV and my money. But every bit of it is worth it when I am watching my son drive and becoming a man.

A quick side note: if you are not tearing your car apart to some degree after every race, you probably aren't running up front. This sport requires constant maintenance and inspection or you will have a disproportionate number of DNFs compared to the rest of the field. A clean ride is a happy ride is what I tell my son. And I tell him that by cleaning and maintaining, this is how you spot problems before they happen on the track.

One more side note :D : All this being said, I am a relative newbie. That is why I ask for so much help here and depend on all the good people here to help me. This is a wonderful aspect to our sport. Everyone seems very willing to help out and teach people that will ultimately become their competitor. Thank you all for the help you have given us to get this car ready.

J.
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#59
Todd Green

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I also agree with dstevens in that if you are going to do this sport, either build some mechanical aptitude, or be prepared to pay for a wrench.


I don't think some of you are understanding what some of us are saying. It isn't lack of ability, it is lack of desire. Obviously we all prep our cars for the track one way or another. This already takes a ton of time (or money). Far more time than we actually spend behind the wheel. Obviously no one wants to race someone who is cheating, but personally I'd rather let someone cheat than spend hours in tech. I'd prefer to be hanging with fellow racers after a race drinking beers and swapping stories. Again, we're talking about regional racing where there is nothing (monetary) on the line. I guess that is an issue with NASA since you don't have the differentiation, and with the higher payouts this year I can see how some want more tech. I can tell you though if we switch to where I'm spending hours putting my car back together after every race, I'll go find a different hobby.
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#60
LarryKing

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What Todd said.

Regional, regional, regional!!!

If you want massive tear-downs for SCCA national and NASA - great - have at. I hate to see the 'win at all cost' mentality trickle down to regional racing any more than it already has. Nothing is on the line but a crappy plaque and ego.

Again - I'm really not worried about it. The worker pool is already stretched - and they want to go to the party too after the race (vs. inspecting a bunch of douchebag's Miatas).
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