128 replies to this topic

[James York]

People,

I have raced SM for 8 years in SCCA, a few in NASA during this time. If you are in for fun, you don't really have anything to worry about if you are running a legal car.

Speaking from the SCCA perspective only, I have never seen anything in regional tech that required much skill and/or dissassembly. Assuming there is no competitor protest against your car, the officials are not going to take your car apart.

Even in nationals, excluding the big events (Runoffs/Sprints/ARRC) I have never been asked to pull much. I have had my car's ECU checked, bore and stroke, plate, throttle body, manifolds, weight, wheels, shock part numbers and compression. And that was for finishing on the podium or top six depending on event. I have only seen or recieved a more intrusive inpection at the big races and/or protested cars. If you enter these races, be prepared.

So don't worry and have fun racing. However, if you bring a monster of a car, you might want to bring your tools or hired hand in case your competitors had enough of getting blown away.

[Jamz14]

Todd,

I do understand what you are saying. One of the points I was trying to make was that I understand not wanting to spend even more time and money on the car. But like all things worthwhile in life, sometimes you have to do things that are hard and take time. It's like dieting or working out, it's hard and no one likes to do it, but the rewards at the end of the day are supposed to make the hard stuff worth it. Dieting isn't for everyone. Nor is racing. I am not trying to suggest we have more tech. I was trying to suggest that if it is deemed that I have to go through an intrusive tech to prove that everything on the car is legit, I don't like it, I'd rather be enjoying the beer with you, but I understand it and deal with it like anything else. This all seems like a moot point. From what I have been reading here, I am not expecting anyone to ask me to strip my car. It sounds like we will roll up on the scales, maybe pull the plate, and head off to the ice chest. You are currently getting everything you are looking for. But I for one like that if there is suspicion that someone is violating the rules, that there is a mechanism in place to address it. I believe that if that mechanism wasn't in place, you would see the cars drifting further and further from stock.

[Todd Green]

But like all things worthwhile in life, sometimes you have to do things that are hard and take time.

So if I want to go play some pickup basketball with some friends, you're saying that we should all be tested for performance enhancing drugs? I'm saying there's a time and place for all different types of racing and levels of tech. Honestly it comes down to what your local community of racers wants. In today's economy we're struggling to just get people out in my area. More later...gotta run (posting from Brazil over a 3G connection that I'm about to lose. )

[Jamz14]

Todd,

No, I don't think your analogy is correct. This isn't a pickup game. Things have to be in scale and proportionate. The investment to play a pick up game is small, therefore the rules enforcing players is small. However the investment to be competitive in motorsports is huge, and therefore the scale of tech and rules is proportionate. If I followed your analogy and applied to motorsports, why have such extensive GCRs? Why not just tell everyone to run what you brung, don't worry about flags, don't worry about equality in weight, just whoever crosses the line first regardless wins?

And I believed I addressed the level of competition that is analagous to a pickup game. If you want to play a pickup game in motorsports, that is what open track days are for. Go play around with your buddies. However if you want to play semi pro or pro ball or college ball, or even high school ball, there is a lot more expected. You will get tested for performance enhancing drugs, you will have to practice 7 days a week for multiple hours, you may get cut from the team, there will be public image rules and regs, there will be all kinds of things you will need to do that the average joe going down to the local school to have some fun playing ball with his buddies don't have to do.

J.

[LarryKing]

If you want to play a pickup game in motorsports, that is what open track days are for

Your analogy is lacking. 'Game' implies competition, which a track day is not.

A track day is more like batting practice, or hitting the driving range for you golfers.

I'm glad I could clear that up.

PS: I'm all for drug testing in club racing including ethyl alcohol. I've seen some hungover mamma-jammas

[Jamz14]

Moose,

I don't agree. A pick up game is only a competition because the people on the court make it a competition. It has no official sanctioning. If you read closely my original post, you will note that I state that nothing prevents average joes from turning a track day into some type of competition. They can compare lap times, they can even race if they do so in an appropriate manner.

You guys are trying to force an analogy that just doesn't fit. I join a sanctioning body like NASA to compete. In competition there are rules. If you want to be good you practice, work hard and sweat. You do painful things for the glory of being number one. A lot of people state that all this is for is a worthless plastic trophy. WRONG! You don't get it. It isn't about the trophy. Even at the highest level of the sport (F1) they really don't care about the value of the trophy. They care about the personal reward in competing and the honor and glory that come with it. It is about teaching young men character. it is about associating with honorable men. As a father, I made a deliberate choice on motorsports for my son ( I didn't force it he did ). The reason is that I found that unlike other sports where boys were primarily associating with other boys of unknown values, I found that most adults in motorsports had a value in my son associating with them. That is because it takes extraordinary devotion and dedication and money to do this sport. Most , not all , people with money have shown an aptitude for being successful. Exactly the type of people I want my son around. And for the most part, this has been the case.

You know I didn't comment originally on your nasty remark of "douchebag Miatas" , but I think it is now appropriate to do so. You dishonor everyone here by your comments. I work my behind off trying to do this and you minimize everyone here that puts in the effort.

Your arrogance is astounding that just a comment by you clears everything up for all. So instead of us commenting at all in this forum , we should just all ask the moose what is right and what is wrong. This is why I waited so long to post a comment. This is why people lurk and don't come out to input their thoughts and ideas. Because of trolls that drag down the conversation. I have been through this before on other forums for other types of motorports. I should have learned my lesson.I will try again to learn the lesson and never engage in the typical degrading of these types of posts. I will check out now and disappear into the ether.

Is this all cleared up for you now?

[LarryKing]

[LarryKing]

OK, let me try this - Nationals are like varsity, regionals are like intermural.

[Todd Green]

No, I don't think your analogy is correct. This isn't a pickup game.

This is about as entry level as it gets (other than LeMons or Chump Car.) I intentionally picked some low level of sports to compare to. Insert little league baseball and scanning bats for being corked, drug testing at high school football games etc. if you want. Track days are not even close. Sure some people try to race at them, but it isn't the same. Anyway my point is that what you want out of racing isn't necessarily the same as what others want. I've "been there and done that". Trophied at Solo Nats and other field sports when I was younger. I have no desire to compete at that level anymore. There are others who share the same values. I'm not saying you get to show up with some cheater car and decimate the field. You can always protest, or just talk to the person etc. I'm just saying that having invasive tech at every race "just because" isn't necessarily the answer for all regions. Our region is relatively new (to road racing), small and trying to grow. I'm more of the opinion to help the new people and talk/educate them. Not all in my region agree with me. At least one person wanted to throw the rule book at a 1st time racer for being 1 lb under weight. Opinions will always differ. Few things in life are black and white.

[LarryKing]

And if we are all "honorable men" (and women too) we wouldn't need tech.

[Armando Ramirez]

Aaah, in a perfect world...

And if we are all "honorable men" (and women too) we wouldn't need tech.

[FTodaro]

Aaah, in a perfect world...

Your assuming that everyone reads the rules, some violations are out of ignorance.

[Mike Collins]

Your assuming that everyone reads the rules, some violations are out of ignorance.

Trust me there are some ignorant SM folks! Most violations are minor or assumed legal since you saw that was how Drago did his car..

[FTodaro]

Trust me there are some ignorant SM folks! Most violations are minor or assumed legal since you saw that was how Drago did his car..

Yes, we can't use Drago and the yard stick can we? Joking JIm.

[Jamz14]

Todd,

Nowhere have I suggested that cars are torn down at every race. Please read my comments closely. I said I was glad that the process for a tear down when the time is right, is in place and that sealed engines are 0 guarantee of spec compliance.

I have said that it should be expected that people know how to work on their cars, or they should be wealthy enough to pay for it. Just like guys playing a pickup game should be aware of how to dribble a ball.

I have said that there are ways to "have fun" only without worrying about tech. And if this is for fun only with no care of placing. I'm sure you can void your race results and refuse a tech inspection. After all , you are just out having fun right?

I have also said that everyone here seems to confirm this whole conversation is moot in that no one is going through invasive tech.

We have jerked off with petty conversations over the analogy of racing to a casual pick up game at the local high school.

And as you have pointed out, people race for different reasons and goals. Should yours be mine? Mine yours? Like it or not, Sm is the first step on a Mazda ladder. We plan to use it that way. You are now starting to see a lot of young drivers use it this way. Look at Elliot Skeer. Now racing at the next level up based on his SM performance. There are others. Everyone can get out of it what they wish. But if you have been in this game for awhile ( meaning more than just SM racing), you should already be aware that tech strip downs are sometimes part of the game. We learned it. We learned it in karting. We expect it in cars. Don't like it, but a fact.

Now how is anything I am saying off base? Do you not agree that the potential for a spec compliance check should be in the GCR? If not, do you think that all the honorable gentlemen in the sport are fully complying with all the rules? I personally don't give a $#@^ about minor infractions that don't violate the spirit of the rules. But, I don't whine when I am called on a minor infraction and penalized for it. How do the officials know my intentions? I wouldn't protest someone off 1 lb. I also wouldn't complain if I was yanked for being off 1 lb. Nature of the sport and my responsibility to ensure I am in compliance.

Everything I am saying is in the rule book. Either fix it, or live with it. And, isn't the recent posting about an ultra fast car enough evidence that the procedure should be in place when needed?

[Keith Novak]

I was following along just fine and now I'm confused. Now that both dribbling and bases are involved, is the analogy between SM and basketball or baseball, or maybe it's an any sport involving a ball thing and does a hockey puck count?

[LarryKing]

Who's on first?

[Todd Green]

Nowhere have I suggested that cars are torn down at every race.

Sorry, I wasn't just responding to you, but the idea that tech needs to be standardized everywhere. That doesn't give regions much leeway to cater to local needs.

I'm sure you can void your race results and refuse a tech inspection.

Actually you can't according to the GCR:

C. Refusing to Allow Inspection
A driver or entrant of a protested car who refuses to allow inspection is
subject to immediate automatic penalty as specified in 7.4.D.4.

I agree with you for the need to have rules and procedures in place for tech for when you need it. I just question the generic application of it for regional type races if the majority of the racers don't want it.

[Armando Ramirez]

Sorry, I wasn't just responding to you, but the idea that tech needs to be standardized everywhere. That doesn't give regions much leeway to cater to local needs.



Actually you can't according to the GCR:

C. Refusing to Allow Inspection
A driver or entrant of a protested car who refuses to allow inspection is
subject to immediate automatic penalty as specified in 7.4.D.4.

I agree with you for the need to have rules and procedures in place for tech for when you need it. I just question the generic application of it for regional type races if the majority of the racers don't want it.

>I just question the generic application of it for regional type races if the majority of the racers don't want it.


The rules should be applied fairly and consistently accross the country.
Northeast, Southeast - wherever - there should be the same expectation all accross.

If it is not legal in one area, it is not legal in the othere areas, that is the fair and equatible way, the same for all.

It is what it is - play by those rules.

[Chris Price]

I personally dont believe there is cheating going on up front in NASA GL's. There was only one car that ever had very high HP advantage on the field , but what would you expect from an engine that was taken to Road America for the runoffs and purchased straight from the track by a GL's driver. The car has since come back to earth, with an engine swap. Again that car was not illegal, it was just one bad ass mother. It would have raised eyebrows at the time had it been put on the dyno, but it shouldnt have raised any eyebrows just because the rest of the field didnt have the same quality engine.

Hey Kyle, I think you are looking at me ...... should I tell you that my "bad ass mother" in fact dynoed in the low 120s hp when I hauled it back from Road America? Or would that offer too much fact for the speculation? What was your '99 car horsepower in the latter part of last year ;-)