207 replies to this topic

[Caveman-kwebb99]

James, you need to read more clearly. I stated many times that I have no problem with it. I suggest that you can't bitch if someone does protest it if it is illegal.

Rob, You made the same point I did, yes, there are times when it is safer to use my car as a wall, but that isn't safer for the car being used as a wall for your mis-shift. What is safer for my car is for you to not miss the shift. And yours too BTW. And see above, I don't care if it is going on during the RACE. I don't care if you guys want to do it or don't. I really don't care if you guys team up in qualifying.

As matter of fact........ you guys win. I give up. I concede the point. Touching and bumping is way more safe than no contact.

Kwebb, you are successful. Consider me punted. I am checking out and leaving you guys to your much more stimulating conversation you engage in.

See you guys at the track.

Jamzy, I dont have nothign agaisnt you, I just think this subject sucks. You seem like a good guy... Racing is not SAFE period, if i dont want to race I should stick with HPDE, and there aint nothing wrong with doing that, In racing there is contact, both intentional and un...

I explained to you how to do qualifying, even was nice... Why you get so mad? I aint mad at you, you even make few good points...

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Come on tired or not mpr!!!!! people getting all twisted up here cuz of what you start, now finish it.

[wheel]

No, put a B on your bumper if you want to play.

[Jason J Ball]

kwebb chasing another one away! lol

[Caveman-kwebb99]

kwebb chasing another one away! lol

LOL funny interesting who likes that post and thinks you being serious! I guess he dont get the lol

[MPR22]

Drafting occurs in almost all forms of racing and even in nature.

* Wikipedia theft: Cooperative fluid dynamics techniques like drafting are found in nature as well. Flocks of geese and some other birds fly in a V formation because the wingtip vortices generated by the front bird will create up-wash circulations. The birds flying behind will receive lift force from these up-wash vortices. Thus other birds in the flock do not need to work as hard to achieve lift.

I don't think it is reasonable to ask the officials to police drafting in qualifying, the corner workers would have to call it in every few seconds. Moving on.

Bump drafting has created viceral responses not only in club racing but also in NASCAR. NASCAR went through a similar dilema several years back going so far as to ban it all together at Taladega one year. SCCA and NASCAR have different business models. NASCAR must please the fans or see declining revenues. SCCA must run a club that balances driver safety and driver enjoyment, not to mention the dozens of stewards, grid workers and corner workers. As Big D said, sometimes we have to protect the drivers from themselves. Racers will often push the envelope of rules and safety to gain an advantage over a competitor.

The contact rule itself is quite clear. 6.11.1 Drivers are responsible are responsible to avoid physical contact on the race track.
7.2 Penalties for a violation range from a $1 fine to probation. The Chief Steward may instigate a Request for Action with the SOM if he or she feels a violation of the GCR has occurred. Most likely action is your car will be black flagged and you will get to visit with the steward in pit lane, effectively ending your race. Black flag is possibly the most draconian of the penalites because there is no appeals process. You have been stripped of your position and most likely points end of story, sorry no refund.

I have raced for about 2.5 years. In that time I have seen my fair share of contact. In the beggining it was newbie on newbie contact, two people who lack skill, awareness or understanding of what their cars and themselves are capable of coming together. As my skill and speed increased, I tried this bump drafting thing. As I practiced it, it was bump crashing as many of you have described. I didn't understand the difference until my friend John Phillips showed me just how hard I hit him on the previous lap. WHAM! Ok, now i get it.

As I started racing towards the front for points the car's and driver's abilities were much more equal. Racing in tight quarters lap after lap initated way more contact (rubs and nudges) than i ever experienced in the mid pack. Most of this contact is completely incedental. Avoidable yes, but it is the way racing is done at the pointy end and that is what I signed up for. Don't get me wrong this contact rarely slows either car down and much more rarely cause loss of control.

There in lies the problem i have with the rules as written. All these little rubs and nudges are violations of 6.11.1. Unless someone protests I have never seen a penalty for the infraction. I have seen full on wrecks with no action taken unless one racer protests another. See Kent Carter's wreck at Hallett. However if you touch bumpers or the corner station thinks you touched the bumper of a competitor on a straight away penalties have and will be assessed.

I am not an idealist. I don't go for this "its cheating" black and white stuff. Like it or not racing is shades of gray at all levels, from club racing to F1.

I might suggest a change to the wording of the 6.11.1

Drivers are responsible to avoid physical contact that causes a change in course or causes damage to another vehicle on the race track.

Easy to police, the car either left their line or they didn't. The car is either damaged or it is not.

Don't start the "that is against the spirit of racing, that gives advantage to the big teams." Its a free country team up with anyone you want. Don't tell me the SCCA won't listen, the lawyers won't allow it, the insurance won't allow it. Until you present a reasonable alternative to the rules as written any bureaucracy's answer is always NO.

Racing is dangerous and the driver assumes risk when they get in the car. My suggested language does not say go run into anyone, it does not say bump drafting is legal. It does give the officials an easily enforceable rule regarding contact.

Also I know, my car has damage all over it, from rubs and bumps and it would be easy to say the car has to be spotless so we can see when we were damaged. Maybe I have to paint my car every weekend, but I expect reasonable people to act reasonably when it comes to the intent of the rules.

If you agree or disagree with the modification let me know. (Sorry Kyle this will go on longer) Someone smarter than me please start a pole. I take no pride in aurthoship of the language if there is a better alternative that helps the officials and racers conform to reasonable racing practices by all means please make suggestions. If we can agree on direction then I suggest we write letters to the with our recomendation to the appropriate parties. If the poll says we like the rule as written, I can certainly live with that.

[pat slattery]

We need somethign more exctitng to talk about! Who cares about this topic, and BS to you PAT, first time Front Runner comes to your trailer to say Shawn, in qualifying come out with us and lets team up... You be on that like stink on shit! For every team that is there, there are just as many private guys...

Glad you can read my mind Kyle. If your not permitted to draft during qualification it is a moot point. Lets see who is the fastest in qualifying, not what three team members are the fastest

[FTodaro]

I wonder why it is when I eat Mexican food the night before, that nobody wants to draft behind me

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Drafting occurs in almost all forms of racing and even in nature.

* Wikipedia theft: Cooperative fluid dynamics techniques like drafting are found in nature as well. Flocks of geese and some other birds fly in a V formation because the wingtip vortices generated by the front bird will create up-wash circulations. The birds flying behind will receive lift force from these up-wash vortices. Thus other birds in the flock do not need to work as hard to achieve lift.

I don't think it is reasonable to ask the officials to police drafting in qualifying, the corner workers would have to call it in every few seconds. Moving on.

Bump drafting has created viceral responses not only in club racing but also in NASCAR. NASCAR went through a similar dilema several years back going so far as to ban it all together at Taladega one year. SCCA and NASCAR have different business models. NASCAR must please the fans or see declining revenues. SCCA must run a club that balances driver safety and driver enjoyment, not to mention the dozens of stewards, grid workers and corner workers. As Big D said, sometimes we have to protect the drivers from themselves. Racers will often push the envelope of rules and safety to gain an advantage over a competitor.

The contact rule itself is quite clear. 6.11.1 Drivers are responsible are responsible to avoid physical contact on the race track.
7.2 Penalties for a violation range from a $1 fine to probation. The Chief Steward may instigate a Request for Action with the SOM if he or she feels a violation of the GCR has occurred. Most likely action is your car will be black flagged and you will get to visit with the steward in pit lane, effectively ending your race. Black flag is possibly the most draconian of the penalites because there is no appeals process. You have been stripped of your position and most likely points end of story, sorry no refund.

I have raced for about 2.5 years. In that time I have seen my fair share of contact. In the beggining it was newbie on newbie contact, two people who lack skill, awareness or understanding of what their cars and themselves are capable of coming together. As my skill and speed increased, I tried this bump drafting thing. As I practiced it, it was bump crashing as many of you have described. I didn't understand the difference until my friend John Phillips showed me just how hard I hit him on the previous lap. WHAM! Ok, now i get it.

As I started racing towards the front for points the car's and driver's abilities were much more equal. Racing in tight quarters lap after lap initated way more contact (rubs and nudges) than i ever experienced in the mid pack. Most of this contact is completely incedental. Avoidable yes, but it is the way racing is done at the pointy end and that is what I signed up for. Don't get me wrong this contact rarely slows either car down and much more rarely cause loss of control.

There in lies the problem i have with the rules as written. All these little rubs and nudges are violations of 6.11.1. Unless someone protests I have never seen a penalty for the infraction. I have seen full on wrecks with no action taken unless one racer protests another. See Kent Carter's wreck at Hallett. However if you touch bumpers or the corner station thinks you touched the bumper of a competitor on a straight away penalties have and will be assessed.

I am not an idealist. I don't go for this "its cheating" black and white stuff. Like it or not racing is shades of gray at all levels, from club racing to F1.

I might suggest a change to the wording of the 6.11.1

Drivers are responsible to avoid physical contact that causes a change in course or causes damage to another vehicle on the race track.

Easy to police, the car either left their line or they didn't. The car is either damaged or it is not.

Don't start the "that is against the spirit of racing, that gives advantage to the big teams." Its a free country team up with anyone you want. Don't tell me the SCCA won't listen, the lawyers won't allow it, the insurance won't allow it. Until you present a reasonable alternative to the rules as written any bureaucracy's answer is always NO.

Racing is dangerous and the driver assumes risk when they get in the car. My suggested language does not say go run into anyone, it does not say bump drafting is legal. It does give the officials an easily enforceable rule regarding contact.

Also I know, my car has damage all over it, from rubs and bumps and it would be easy to say the car has to be spotless so we can see when we were damaged. Maybe I have to paint my car every weekend, but I expect reasonable people to act reasonably when it comes to the intent of the rules.

If you agree or disagree with the modification let me know. (Sorry Kyle this will go on longer) Someone smarter than me please start a pole. I take no pride in aurthoship of the language if there is a better alternative that helps the officials and racers conform to reasonable racing practices by all means please make suggestions. If we can agree on direction then I suggest we write letters to the with our recomendation to the appropriate parties. If the poll says we like the rule as written, I can certainly live with that.

Good write up, not sure it will come to anything but good none the less.

[Jim Drago]

Glad you can read my mind Kyle. If your not permitted to draft during qualification it is a moot point. Lets see who is the fastest in qualifying, not what three team members are the fastest

It is four this year You forgot the 1.6

[Jim Drago]

Incidental and accidental contact you are speaking of, is often just that, accidental.. Bump drafting is intentional and for the purposes of gaining an advantage. I will still get very close to my team mates next week in qualifying at the Sprints. It may even appear we are touching, but when we go under the flag stand at start/finish and they are staring down at the gap between the cars, they will realize we must have been just really close and not touching, because we aren't touching now.

We can rationalize, justify and try to explain until we are blue in the face. IMO, their will NEVER be a "it is legal to bump draft policy " in the SCCA.

[Keith Novak]

* Wikipedia theft: Cooperative fluid dynamics techniques like drafting are found in nature as well. Flocks of geese and some other birds fly in a V formation because the wingtip vortices generated by the front bird will create up-wash circulations. The birds flying behind will receive lift force from these up-wash vortices. Thus other birds in the flock do not need to work as hard to achieve lift.

Geese like to live dangerously. They don't bump draft and instead make risky moves going 6 wide in corners until someone gets sucked into a jet engine intake. The real reason they don't bump draft is nobody wants their beak covered in goose crap.

7.2 Penalties for a violation range from a $1 fine to probation. The Chief Steward may instigate a Request for Action with the SOM if he or she feels a violation of the GCR has occurred.

We can streamline this process significantly. I'll leave a $20 deposit with my entry fees. Any time they see me bump draft someone or get a push, they take $1. What's left over at the end goes in the workers fund for BBQ and beer. Problem solved.

[Jason J Ball]

LOL funny interesting who likes that post and thinks you being serious! I guess he dont get the lol

I didn't think I used the sarcastic font! I better make sure I watch that so as not to confuse anyone.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Drafting occurs in almost all forms of racing and even in nature.

* Wikipedia theft: Cooperative fluid dynamics techniques like drafting are found in nature as well. Flocks of geese and some other birds fly in a V formation because the wingtip vortices generated by the front bird will create up-wash circulations. The birds flying behind will receive lift force from these up-wash vortices. Thus other birds in the flock do not need to work as hard to achieve lift.

I don't think it is reasonable to ask the officials to police drafting in qualifying, the corner workers would have to call it in every few seconds. Moving on.

Bump drafting has created viceral responses not only in club racing but also in NASCAR. NASCAR went through a similar dilema several years back going so far as to ban it all together at Taladega one year. SCCA and NASCAR have different business models. NASCAR must please the fans or see declining revenues. SCCA must run a club that balances driver safety and driver enjoyment, not to mention the dozens of stewards, grid workers and corner workers. As Big D said, sometimes we have to protect the drivers from themselves. Racers will often push the envelope of rules and safety to gain an advantage over a competitor.

The contact rule itself is quite clear. 6.11.1 Drivers are responsible are responsible to avoid physical contact on the race track.
7.2 Penalties for a violation range from a $1 fine to probation. The Chief Steward may instigate a Request for Action with the SOM if he or she feels a violation of the GCR has occurred. Most likely action is your car will be black flagged and you will get to visit with the steward in pit lane, effectively ending your race. Black flag is possibly the most draconian of the penalites because there is no appeals process. You have been stripped of your position and most likely points end of story, sorry no refund.

I have raced for about 2.5 years. In that time I have seen my fair share of contact. In the beggining it was newbie on newbie contact, two people who lack skill, awareness or understanding of what their cars and themselves are capable of coming together. As my skill and speed increased, I tried this bump drafting thing. As I practiced it, it was bump crashing as many of you have described. I didn't understand the difference until my friend John Phillips showed me just how hard I hit him on the previous lap. WHAM! Ok, now i get it.

As I started racing towards the front for points the car's and driver's abilities were much more equal. Racing in tight quarters lap after lap initated way more contact (rubs and nudges) than i ever experienced in the mid pack. Most of this contact is completely incedental. Avoidable yes, but it is the way racing is done at the pointy end and that is what I signed up for. Don't get me wrong this contact rarely slows either car down and much more rarely cause loss of control.

There in lies the problem i have with the rules as written. All these little rubs and nudges are violations of 6.11.1. Unless someone protests I have never seen a penalty for the infraction. I have seen full on wrecks with no action taken unless one racer protests another. See Kent Carter's wreck at Hallett. However if you touch bumpers or the corner station thinks you touched the bumper of a competitor on a straight away penalties have and will be assessed.

I am not an idealist. I don't go for this "its cheating" black and white stuff. Like it or not racing is shades of gray at all levels, from club racing to F1.

I might suggest a change to the wording of the 6.11.1

Drivers are responsible to avoid physical contact that causes a change in course or causes damage to another vehicle on the race track.

Easy to police, the car either left their line or they didn't. The car is either damaged or it is not.

Don't start the "that is against the spirit of racing, that gives advantage to the big teams." Its a free country team up with anyone you want. Don't tell me the SCCA won't listen, the lawyers won't allow it, the insurance won't allow it. Until you present a reasonable alternative to the rules as written any bureaucracy's answer is always NO.

Racing is dangerous and the driver assumes risk when they get in the car. My suggested language does not say go run into anyone, it does not say bump drafting is legal. It does give the officials an easily enforceable rule regarding contact.

Also I know, my car has damage all over it, from rubs and bumps and it would be easy to say the car has to be spotless so we can see when we were damaged. Maybe I have to paint my car every weekend, but I expect reasonable people to act reasonably when it comes to the intent of the rules.

If you agree or disagree with the modification let me know. (Sorry Kyle this will go on longer) Someone smarter than me please start a pole. I take no pride in aurthoship of the language if there is a better alternative that helps the officials and racers conform to reasonable racing practices by all means please make suggestions. If we can agree on direction then I suggest we write letters to the with our recomendation to the appropriate parties. If the poll says we like the rule as written, I can certainly live with that.

To illistrate MPR points...

[Bench Racer]

We need somethign more exctitng to talk about!

Attempted to spice it up a bit yesterday but everone has selective reading skill so no takers. Spec Miata drivers blocking other Spec Miata drivers.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Attempted to spice it up a bit yesterday but everone has selective reading skill so no takers. Spec Miata drivers blocking other Spec Miata drivers.

Nobody gonna take your bait Dewey...

If I made the rules and I know, that would be bad... There wouldnt be many rules, but my first rule would be NO 1.6's LOL

Maybe now is the time to start a 1.6 parity thread, since we are finally done with BDing...

[Todd Green]

This is what you said:

In qualifying it should be simple. No coordinated drafting. Whether bump drafting or not.

That is what I took exception to (eliminating any form of drafting during quali). I even quoted it in my reply. Why you keep trying to extrapolate this to racing is beyond me.

Yes, I assume that you are talking about yourself ( or ourselves???, as you put it above ).

Either you are a troll or are an ... well no name calling allowed. So if I say that I think we should have locks on our doors as a rule because there are thieves in the world, does that mean I'm personally going to come over and break in to your house?

[Caveman-kwebb99]

This is what you said:



That is what I took exception to (eliminating any form of drafting during quali). I even quoted it in my reply. Why you keep trying to extrapolate this to racing is beyond me.



Either you are a troll or are an ... well no name calling allowed. So if I say that I think we should have locks on our doors as a rule because there are thieves in the world, does that mean I'm personally going to come over and break in to your house?

What it means to me is that you are going to make him drink 3-2 beer or some crazy shit...

[Todd Green]

What it means to me is that you are going to make him drink 3-2 beer or some crazy shit...

Nah, he needs to loosen up. I'll give him some of our Devastator.(*) I'm saving all the 3-2 just for you Webby.


* One of our SM racers is actually a brewmeister at a local micro brewery so we actually have tons of good/free beer at our races *plug* *plug* for the Aug Utah Double Rational

[DrDomm]

Glad you can read my mind Kyle. If your not permitted to draft during qualification it is a moot point. Lets see who is the fastest in qualifying, not what three team members are the fastest

No drafting? Single car qualifying, then. I just started, and don't have many "friends", but it's pretty easy to get a draft. Probably impossible to avoid.