207 replies to this topic

[MPR22]

Consecutive laps at TWS on the front staight. The straight leads into turn 1 and 2 which can be taken from litterally dozens of lines most of which are equally fast. However each driver seems to take the line that is most comfortable to them or to their particular set up for the weekend. In both cases my car was not fast enough to get around the lead car before turn in to 1. Part one I decide to rub and back out to let him lead into 1, second shot is me pulling out to pass, this was slower but the lead car knew I was faster through 1 & 2 and lifted to let me by (Teamwork but nobody would complain about him lifting). This of course was slower and allowed the trailing car to close on him.

http://www.youtube.c..._id=9LFY0W-EB6A

Go to the 3:15 mark of the next video. Without the ability to push anyone by the next guy you end up with a 6 cars entering the turn simultaneously, it was hairy. If anyone of the lead cars had lost it, in we would have wadded up several 30k cars (luckily you had several of the top 20 SM drivers in the country). The previous day we didn't have the problem, bump drafting was happening throughout the field and I would argue made for a safer race if not as exciting for the spectators.

[Jamz14]

I can see when the bump drafting is going on from many different angles. You can see the car movement when it is touched. I know you guys think that you are so artful in doing it that it is imperceptible, but it is. And besides, I expect that if it is disallowed during qualifying, that you won't do it. That you will honor the rule without having to be forced to comply. Keep doing it though and eventually the corner worker will spot it. And besides, it happens often on the front straights and the start finish stand will catch it.

[Jamz14]

MPR22,

Come on now, safer? Look if you all want to implement bumping, no problem, but we don't have to make up reasons to do it. And if people on the grid couldn't handle the situation you described above without taking out all the leaders, I would suggest that they are probably not up there driving with you guys in the first place.

Touching cars is not safer in any sense. Doesn't mean that it is extraordinarily dangerous, just that a safer argument is a weak argument.

[Rob Burgoon]

I can see when the bump drafting is going on from many different angles. You can see the car movement when it is touched. I know you guys think that you are so artful in doing it that it is imperceptible, but it is. And besides, I expect that if it is disallowed during qualifying, that you won't do it. That you will honor the rule without having to be forced to comply. Keep doing it though and eventually the corner worker will spot it. And besides, it happens often on the front straights and the start finish stand will catch it.

Have you seen cars pushing when they are trying to hide it? You can push without a bump. Here's how to defeat the corner workers: break contact slightly as you go parallel with each station. It's that easy. You need ketchup packets or a sensor with a light on the roof to enforce this. It's that or pull the bumper supports, but we probably want those for real contact.

[Rob Burgoon]

if not as exciting for the spectators.

Wait wait wait.... tell me more about this "spectators" thing.

[Tom Sager]

Wait wait wait.... tell me more about this "spectators" thing.

There were at least 2 of them at Mid-Ohio this past weekend. I met them both.

[svvs]

Wait wait wait.... tell me more about this "spectators" thing.

In NASCAR.....the spectators know all the drivers and their stats.

In road racing.......the drivers know all the spectators, and what type of car they drove to the track in.

Best spectators I've ever seen the northeast? Cubscouts. At Limerock they do a campout once a year. It's awesome.

[Jamz14]

Rob,

I haven't seen it if they were hiding it good! And again, the point isn't what you can get away with. It is what is proper. If I could get away with running a modified ECU, should we scrap the rule preventing it? Or are you now making the case that we should tech more extensively?

In qualifying it should be simple. No coordinated drafting. Whether bump drafting or not. It is easy to show that you are not drafting and still run very close to the car ahead. Just pull out of the draft line on the straight. If you are running nose to tail through the corners, no big deal. But once you come to the straight where the draft can really kick in, pull out of the line and don't be penalized.

[Todd Green]

In qualifying it should be simple. No coordinated drafting. Whether bump drafting or not. It is easy to show that you are not drafting and still run very close to the car ahead. Just pull out of the draft line on the straight. If you are running nose to tail through the corners, no big deal. But once you come to the straight where the draft can really kick in, pull out of the line and don't be penalized.

Just in case this isn't a joke. And just how close am I allowed to get before I have to pull out of line? Just how close before the corner am I allowed to drop back in line so the person in front knows that I'm not trying to pass? Now when I'm exiting that corner and am right on his bumper how soon do I have to pull back out of line?

This is just like any other attempt to making racing equal, which it will never be. Someone will always have more money/time/talent/desire/luck etc.

Touching cars is not safer in any sense

It can be. They are saying that is is safer to bump than to try a low percentage pass in the corner where contact is very likely.

[pat slattery]

I'm in favor of full legalization of bump drafting EXCEPT for qual sessions. There it should be absolutely outlawed. While rare, I've seen drivers work together during the qual session to gain what I feel is an unfair advantage on the starting grid. As we know, we may be second only to F1 when it comes to the value of a front grid slot. That spot needs to be earned alone - not by tandem bump drafting. B/D'ing is a strategic RACE tool to use when two drivers want to to work together to create a break away, and / or as a means to catch up with one. Taking it away lessens the racecraft aspect of the sport IMHO.
Rick
P.S. My bumpers are properly scuffed.

Rick +1 on that

During a race great, but in qualifying when you see team cars in lockstep pushing each other lap after lap I say NO. You see this lots at Road America, and there is a big difference in MPH when it is done.

[Keith Novak]

Despite opinions one way or another here, this sounds like another case of:

Thank you for your letter. The rule regarding contact is adequate as written.

[Jeremy Rutter]

Great topic and great discussion.

From a rookie perspective I would just like to see consistency. From all of the video I have watched I assumed bump drafting in SM/SSM was an accpeted practice. At my first race at Summit Point (MARRS) in April I was running very closely with another car and I pushed him a number of times down the front straight. He was signaling me, and I wasn't entirely sure what it meant, but I assumed he wanted me to bump draft him. We talked after the race and we were completely on the same page and he thought we worked well together. My second and third races were at VIR (SARRC/MARRS) last month. At the start of the Sunday race, I got a run on the car in front and I gave him a bump as we came down the front straight (we agreed on this before the race). I was also pushed a few times along the back straight during the race. After the race I was reamed in impound for my push at the start, but there was no mention of the bump drafting down the back straight. And I was told very clearly that bump drafting was not allowed at VIR. I suppose because I'm new to this, I was very surprised. I thought for sure that it was ok. I don't think it's right to allow it at some tracks/regions, but not at others. It needs to be the same across the board, in my opinion.

Jeremy

[Jamz14]

Todd

Just because you can't bump you shouldn't make the decision to make a low percentage pass!!!!!! You should have control over yourself and your car and make proper decisions regardless.

Give me a break, you know when you are drafting and when you are not. And this isn't attempt to making racing equal. This is an attempt to make qualifying representative of actual speed. And if you want to talk about safety, a better case can be made that people working together in qualifying to improve someones pace that doesn't have it outright, and that person now having a grid spot in front of someone that is faster is much more unsafe than not allowing cars to bump draft. Keep in mind, I said that whatever you guys decide for the race I have no problem with, It is qualifying where it should be disallowed.

What always blows me away is how much people want to dance around the issue. It is easy to tear apart any idea. I don't know what business you are in but have you ever done any sales call role playings? Ever notice how easy it is to play the part of a prick customer? Burying the conversation in what ifs seems to be the norm for trying to prevent implementation of what is right. Really easy to fix your contentions for drafting during qualifying if you are really interested. Just send cars out for four laps, spaced 15 seconds apart in a randomly selected qualifying order.

Ok, now you can start to pick apart this idea,just keep in mind when you do that the only goal is to have the starting grid as representative as possible of actual race pace. To dial back just a bit the advantage that large teams have against small independents. And BTW, I am not complaining about the advantage, doesn't mean that I ignore it and don't minimize it when I can. After all , if I didn't try to equalize it, I would be trying less hard to win than the teams that are trying to maximize their advantage right??

[William Keeling]

And the unscrupulous driver or their crew will take advantade of it by discretely popping everyone elses ketchup packets in impound.

and doing testing to find the fastfood packet that can handle 2000 ppp (pound per packet)

[LarryKing]

Mustard packets should be used for red Miatas, mayo for dark colors.

[Rob Burgoon]

and doing testing to find the fastfood packet that can handle 2000 ppp (pound per packet)

I'm going to be selling a splitter made entirely from ketchup packets and racer tape. $1200 + core

[MPR22]

MPR22,

Come on now, safer? Look if you all want to implement bumping, no problem, but we don't have to make up reasons to do it. And if people on the grid couldn't handle the situation you described above without taking out all the leaders, I would suggest that they are probably not up there driving with you guys in the first place.

Touching cars is not safer in any sense. Doesn't mean that it is extraordinarily dangerous, just that a safer argument is a weak argument.

I am not arguing for or against the writen rules or their enforcement.

I will argue the likelyhood of damage occuring to a car is higher trying to fit 3-6 cars in the same turn vs going in 2 wide or single file (see most SM starts). I will argue that the likelyhood of damage occuring with 3-6 cars piling into the same turn is much higher than a trailing car applying a 2-3mph vector to the lead cars rear bumper.

I understand there are unlimited scenarios that play out during a race, that is why they make us sign the waiver that says they, the sanctioning body, are not liable.

[James York]

I can see when the bump drafting is going on from many different angles. You can see the car movement when it is touched. I know you guys think that you are so artful in doing it that it is imperceptible, but it is. And besides, I expect that if it is disallowed during qualifying, that you won't do it. That you will honor the rule without having to be forced to comply. Keep doing it though and eventually the corner worker will spot it. And besides, it happens often on the front straights and the start finish stand will catch it.

I think an important point is being missed. Bump drafting (contact) is not permitted in the GCR, whether it be during qualifying or a race session.

Facts are, it happens and will happen. The leaders and experienced racers know when they can get away with it and how far to push it. It is enforced at times when the stewards decide to make an issue of it, and if the corner workers can see it.

[jbilicki51]

I think in SM it should stay OK to bump draft. Check out my video from the weekends race at Mid Ohio. We were bump drafting alot, and towards the end of the video we really bump draft alot.

[Jim Drago]

I am not arguing for or against the writen rules or their enforcement.

I will argue the likelyhood of damage occuring to a car is higher trying to fit 3-6 cars in the same turn vs going in 2 wide or single file (see most SM starts). I will argue that the likelyhood of damage occuring with 3-6 cars piling into the same turn is much higher than a trailing car applying a 2-3mph vector to the lead cars rear bumper.

I understand there are unlimited scenarios that play out during a race, that is why they make us sign the waiver that says they, the sanctioning body, are not liable.

While I am not against... I would point out that all the cars are equipped with a brake pedal and brakes as well, it really isn't and either or scenario
Jim