207 replies to this topic

[suck fumes]

I think you are right. If you don't want to get bumped put an X on your bumper and if anyone touches you then they get a penalty. Now if there is not an X on the bumper than you are saying I want to get bumped. Problem solved.

[svvs]

I think you are right. If you don't want to get bumped put an X on your bumper and if anyone touches you then they get a penalty. Now if there is not an X on the bumper than you are saying I want to get bumped. Problem solved.

I think it needs to be a bit more clear than that.....I had a friend who had an X that said "push here" in small print. Another racer up here (very fast guy) had a sticker that said "no bumping" with a frownie faced cartoon waving his finger at people.

If it's a problem in your region, then have a driver's meeting after practice on the first day of a race weekend. Take attendance. Make it clear no bump drafting without permission, no bump drafting, or whatever the racers decide. Talk to your local steward, they should listen.

I think the common sense move as a driver is only do it with people you are comfortable with, and even then wait for a hand signal. It will eliminate a lot of post race conversations and arguments. If you get pushed or rammed by someone, talk to them after the race. Depending on how you feel after that, talk to the stewards.

Wow, this might be the most involved I have been in any thread on this site.

-Vick

[Alberto]

Sounds like you've experienced bumping done badly, Alberto. Have you ever felt it done properly? You (the lead car) shouldn't feel any jarring, or upsetting of the car; at most you should feel a slight acceleration, like you had 20 more horsepower for a second or two. What you felt probably wasn't bump-drafting, but ramming -- which should never be done.

Yes, I did experience it poorly in this class in this region with those particular drivers... Doesn't mean that other drivers in the region are the same. Can't judge the whole group by those few.

I have experienced it done properly - back about 12 years ago when I used to race karts. But that was with a close friend / team mate and we had practiced it and come to an agreement with using it as a technique to gain a competitive advantage.

[DrDomm]

But that was with a close friend / team mate and we had practiced it and come to an agreement with using it as a technique to gain a competitive advantage.

Well here's the big problem. I watch "teams" show up with 10+ cars. It's already difficult to not feel like an underdog (which is fine as a beginner), but if we see equal cars/drivers being ganged up on by friends/teams, then the class will suffer.

But drafting without bumping is totally legal, and there's usually friends to be made (mid pack).

[HoneyBadger - BrianW]

Well here's the big problem. I watch "teams" show up with 10+ cars. It's already difficult to not feel like an underdog (which is fine as a beginner), but if we see equal cars/drivers being ganged up on by friends/teams, then the class will suffer.

But drafting without bumping is totally legal, and there's usually friends to be made (mid pack).

Bump drafting is less about "teams" and more about finding someone that is basically running exactly the same pace as you. Sometimes there are team mates that pair up, but I can almost always find someone to draft with, and I don't show up as part of a big team.

[Rob Burgoon]

Well here's the big problem. I watch "teams" show up with 10+ cars. It's already difficult to not feel like an underdog (which is fine as a beginner), but if we see equal cars/drivers being ganged up on by friends/teams, then the class will suffer.

But drafting without bumping is totally legal, and there's usually friends to be made (mid pack).

One could make a case for eliminating bumping to reduce the effect of a team, OTOH allowing bumping also reduces the likelihood of punts. I feel that drivers are less likely to attempt a low percentage move if they have an almost as good alternative (push him instead).

[svvs]

One could make a case for eliminating bumping to reduce the effect of a team, OTOH allowing bumping also reduces the likelihood of punts. I feel that drivers are less likely to attempt a low percentage move if they have an almost as good alternative (push him instead).

Rob:

That last sentence doesn't make sense to me. Pushing a slower guy down the front straight doesn't really do me any good.

Is there such a thing as a "low percentage move" on a straight? I would imagine if you're faster, suck up in his draft for as long as possible, "pop" out, and try to keep going. If you're approaching the braking zone and it's clear you're not alongside, back out of it, tuck back in behind the car in front of you, and take a normal line through the corner. No speed really lost except for the speed you lose being behind the slower guy in the corner.....which you would have lost anyway if you had pushed him down the straight.

I don't see how allowing the cars to touch a bit while drafting down a straightaway would lead to fewer punts. I'm not an argumentative guy, but I don't understand your comment.

-Vick

[HoneyBadger - BrianW]

The problem is it is very difficult to actually complete the pass while still on the straight. That leads to you going into a corner 2 wide, someone (normally the leading driver) is going to take a defensive line. This means you are both going to be slower allowing those in front of you to pull away and those behind to catch up. It doesn't take too many corners of doing this to completely loose touch with the pack in front of you.

[Rob Burgoon]

I don't see how allowing the cars to touch a bit while drafting down a straightaway would lead to fewer punts. I'm not an argumentative guy, but I don't understand your comment.

-Vick

Let's say I have a very slow run on someone halfway down the straight. I'll get my front tire to his rear tire as we enter the braking zone if I try the pass. Should I try the pass? Probably not. If my closing rate is that low, I'll shove him instead. Then we both benefit from my excellent previous corner even if I don't get my pass yet. If I'm not allowed to shove, I'll more seriously consider the pass attempt even if it's dicey.

[svvs]

Let's say I have a very slow run on someone halfway down the straight. I'll get my front tire to his rear tire as we enter the braking zone if I try the pass. Should I try the pass? Probably not. If my closing rate is that low, I'll shove him instead. Then we both benefit from my excellent previous corner even if I don't get my pass yet. If I'm not allowed to shove, I'll more seriously consider the pass attempt even if it's dicey.

Very slow run.....got it. I just assumed a run period.

[MPR22]

Let's say I have a very slow run on someone halfway down the straight. I'll get my front tire to his rear tire as we enter the braking zone if I try the pass. Should I try the pass? Probably not. If my closing rate is that low, I'll shove him instead. Then we both benefit from my excellent previous corner even if I don't get my pass yet. If I'm not allowed to shove, I'll more seriously consider the pass attempt even if it's dicey.

I will post a video tomorrow that shows Rob's scenario. Equal cars, equal drivers this is a very common scenario.

[Scott McKay]

Personally, I hate it, but that's because I usually don't have a dancing partner, and two cars roll by me down a straight like I'm not there, which totally sucks. On big tracks like those we have in Florida, if you don't have a partner to go with you, I don't care what your talent level is, two cars in a train will leave you.

[James York]

Personally, I hate it, but that's because I usually don't have a dancing partner, and two cars roll by me down a straight like I'm not there, which totally sucks. On big tracks like those we have in Florida, if you don't have a partner to go with you, I don't care what your talent level is, two cars in a train will leave you.

You need to make friends.......

Oh wait, I see your occupation...

[DrDomm]

Let's say I have a very slow run on someone halfway down the straight. I'll get my front tire to his rear tire as we enter the braking zone if I try the pass. Should I try the pass? Probably not. If my closing rate is that low, I'll shove him instead. Then we both benefit from my excellent previous corner even if I don't get my pass yet. If I'm not allowed to shove, I'll more seriously consider the pass attempt even if it's dicey.

Another scenario is when you're 2 or 3 wide. Adding another car to the width getting into the corner isn't helpful. Lifting isn't helpful. So "love the one you're with", and push him down the straight. I did it last weekend at the Glen. Three wide getting into the inner loop/bus stop doesn't work well. So I stayed behind the car in front, and bumped him. Not sure if his ensuing hand gesture was to thank me or not.

[Cnj]

I would prefer that they legalize it in SCCA. My confused heritage has enough British in it that the rules follower in me wants to follow the letter of the law and never be bumped from behind or bump anyone else - but the practical racer in me knows that I will move back 3 positions if I don't bump draft in quali at certain tracks and will get swallowed up on long straights at every track we run by other cars who are ALL doing it. I want to simply know that I am fully within the letter of the law.

The only time I have been belted has been when I missed a shift (my bad) or in a corner where the guy behind me misjudged entry and who am I to criticize those misjudgments given my own indiscretions (which I typically go and apologize for). Occasionally I get bump drafted a little hard but mostly the guys I run with are pretty skilled and know what they are doing. A couple of years ago I got into trouble for bumping when I agreed that I would push the car in 3rd at the start (I was in 5th). For some reason my addled brain decided that I needed to close on him really tight before the start. At the end of the race the chief steward called us both in and asked me why I felt I needed to hit the car in front of me 3 times BEFORE the green flag. Hard to come up with an excuse for that. Good thing flaggers missed the other two hits First and last time I tried that dumb strategy. I think I would have been DQ'd but the guy in third hit 7 cars during the race as I recollect and was a bigger target than I was that day for DQ.

One of the things I do like about the drafting (which York points out) is that you actually do need to make friends and work together to do well. This is one of the more interesting elements of racing in a spec series. To get away from the pack you need to build alliances with competitors, have discipline and be able to read the intentions of others. This is so much more than simply driving fast. If you act like a jerk on of off track, if you are inconsistent in your driving or temperament, you will not be able to build those alliances which allow you to run up front and drafting (bump or otherwise) highlights this.

cnj

[Tom Sager]

I too have participated in and benefitted from bump drafting but I think it should not be allowed and the rule should be enforced. Yes enforcing it is tough. Over the years I've seen some abuse such as a car with more than 100HP differential pushing another car (in a different class) during qualifying. That and even in a single class like ours it makes it less "spec" when teamates or buddies can gain an advantage not available to many.

[Jamz14]

I'll let you guys work out whether it should be used under race conditions and we will follow whatever is implemented in the organization, series, race, or region.

However I vote against being able to use this while qualifying. Qualifying is supposed to be an individual effort against the clock in order to set the grid.Using team or coordinated tactics to improve your time goes against its purpose and puts the solo racer at a disadvantage during qualifying. If the teammates are really good enough to run together, then their individual qualifying performances will put them close enough together on the grid to take advantage of bump drafting during the race if you all so choose to include it.

Yeah, yeah, I know you won't be able to prevent some drafting during qualifying,but that doesn't mean you go and encourage it by allowing bump drafting during it. And bump drafting is easy enough for the corner workers to spot and make good decisions regarding it.

[Rob Burgoon]

And bump drafting is easy enough for the corner workers to spot and make good decisions regarding it.

Ah, no.

You're a corner worker in the tower at ACS. My nose is right behind another car. Am I pushing? How could you possibly know at any time other than the moment the gap is precisely perpendicular to you?

[Qik Nip]

I'm in favor of full legalization of bump drafting EXCEPT for qual sessions. There it should be absolutely outlawed. While rare, I've seen drivers work together during the qual session to gain what I feel is an unfair advantage on the starting grid. As we know, we may be second only to F1 when it comes to the value of a front grid slot. That spot needs to be earned alone - not by tandem bump drafting. B/D'ing is a strategic RACE tool to use when two drivers want to to work together to create a break away, and / or as a means to catch up with one. Taking it away lessens the racecraft aspect of the sport IMHO.
Rick
P.S. My bumpers are properly scuffed.

[Jamz14]

Rob,

I understand that you can't catch all incidents accurately by corner workers. Doesn't mean that you don't implement the rule!!!! Since when have corner workers been able to catch all rule infractions? Do we throw out the rule book then just because they can't be perfect? Come on now!!