183 replies to this topic

[Newton]

I like JIm's idea. A DC region championship(Summit, VIR, NJMP) and the MARRS championship, it is nothing more than a little more number crunching.

I do completely understand what your blog intention is and a rant it is not. It has clear facts and definitely opinions but is not overly emotional. Some apparently arent getting it, thats OK.

The fact that you got into racing when the schedule was within reach for joe shmoe and then the schedule was changed to allow only those SERIOUSLY committed or wealthy to compete in the entire season is what is driving you away.

We all accept and agree that while SM is definitely on the lower cost end of racing, it is in no way cheap and in no way did i pick up that you were complaining about the cost.

[edzeb]

Writing as a long, long, long time Official and Officer (regional and national), as well as driver (national), I do beat my drum about getting involved because of the high number of 'misinformed' members we do have. I have been sent commentary like "...since I only drive, you (the SCCA Official/Officer) should be scanning all of the forums for MY input..." And the poster wonders why he does not like my reply to him? One of my all time favourites was the guy who came up to me complaining that since the regional race was being hosted by HIS region then he shouldn't have to accept the shortened P & Q sessions and all drivers of the hosting region should get the full 20min. I actually (and politely) asked him what colour the sky was at his event...

[jeopardyracing]

I like JIm's idea. A DC region championship(Summit, VIR, NJMP) and the MARRS championship, it is nothing more than a little more number crunching.

I do completely understand what your blog intention is and a rant it is not. It has clear facts and definitely opinions but is not overly emotional. Some apparently arent getting it, thats OK.

The fact that you got into racing when the schedule was within reach for joe shmoe and then the schedule was changed to allow only those SERIOUSLY committed or wealthy to compete in the entire season is what is driving you away.

We all accept and agree that while SM is definitely on the lower cost end of racing, it is in no way cheap and in no way did i pick up that you were complaining about the cost.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. You exactly nailed what I was trying to say: My issue is with the change in the region, not the fact that all racing was already too expensive and needs to be made cheaper.

[LarryKing]

Mr. Shmoe would still need to finish on the podium of most, if not all, of the series' events to be champ. Good luck.

[DrDomm]

Sorry, I had to start skimming on page 3. I got my own rant to worry about.

I think no one told the OP that it's ok for everyone to biatch about about the expense of racing to your friends, family, co-workers, etc. You just can't do it with other racers. Unwritten rule.

Um, I think it's always good to share views though, so why be so harsh? I'm afraid to say that I think some don't want to admit to themselves that we all waste too much money on this. So they berate the guy that brings it up.

[dmac]

In reading your blog, yes I read each entry since your unfortunate crash in April (and the full thread posted here), it seems that you have come face to face with a decision you don't want to admit exists. You need to decide what it is you are looking for in racing. Restricting tires, changing manufacturers, etc will not help you find the answer. I doubt that changing sanctioning organizations solves addresses your problem either.

[granracing]

If you dont practice Friday---you dont perform well until Sunday...

Absolutely not true. That's just because you're not experienced enough yet but it'll come with time.

If its about WINNING, someone will ALWAYS find a way to outspend/out test/out build/ out tallent.

Absolutely true. Tires are one issue but compared to the $50k car builds, that's the least of the issues.

Like Glen says is you want cheap racing its called IT, run what you brung. SM is not a budget class, why would anyone argue that point?

LMAO. Something like that.

There's a difference between cheap racing, and cheap winning. Huge difference. You will find all out builds in both IT AND SM. You will find very low budget builds in each has well. Some say SM could be more budget friendly. SM tires - $160 each. My ITB tires, in excess of $220 each. Tons of take offs available with SM tires that you could get super cheaply from the tire vendor / competitors. Easy car on parts, lots of supplier support.

There's a big difference between a Series losing guys and Club Racing losing guys. I never followed a series and instead picked and choose which events I have most fun at. Labor Day Summit is one of them. That said, there's nothing wrong with trying to come up with new methods to reduce the benefit of spending more.

[Keith Andrews]

I like JIm's idea. A DC region championship(Summit, VIR, NJMP) and the MARRS championship, it is nothing more than a little more number crunching.

If you decided to go this route I think you will find that it is a great deal more than some number crunching. Totally doable but it will take real work and organization. Schedule and rules for the series need buy in (interest) from competitors/officials. You will need to get all the different regions that host your events to buy into the new series. You don't want to go to all the work of getting a new series together only to have a disagreement between the series and host regions. As you know more than one region can host events at the same track. I don't know how many regions you could be talking about with the three tracks listed above. My .02

[xczach]

As a guy looking into starting to race, I too am concerned about travel costs. However, unlike the OP, I would be in the Midwest Division where the closest track for me (Mid America Motorplex) is two hours away, and the other two tracks (Topeka and Hastings) within a reasonable distance are a 6 hour tow. Since I am probably never going to be rich by any means I will just have to manage and try to reduce travel costs as much as possible. As far as tires are concerned, there has to be ways to reduce tire wear other than following Hoosier's break in procedure such adjusting your driving style to be easier on them (I know it works in F1).

[Keith Novak]

It's not as much reducing the tread wear. The tread gets to a point where it's grip isn't as good. Heating and cooling changes the rubber much like heat treating metal. As someone looking into racing, I wouldn't worry about it too much until you are running very close times to the pole. At the number of cycles people talk about where the tires lose some grip, there's still a whole lot of rubber left. Some people say they're vastly slower, others say a few 10ths slower. Looking at front runners times, I lean more tenths than whole seconds. Using data and sometimes just counting "one one thousand" I've learned how little it takes to lose a second let alone a couple tenths in many corners.

I usually bring 2 sets of drys and a set of wets unless there's zero chance of rain where I'll bring more drys if available to cycle them or use them up. I'll pick the tires I think are fastest for qualifying, and use other tires for practice or the race. First I found a local tire shop that would do my tires for cheap (cash helps) so I could flip them on the rim or swap out one if I flat spotted it. I eventually bought some old used equipment to do it myself and it paid for itself quickly.

Even if you have the fastest tires, you'll have plenty of sessions where the track conditions change even when it's bone dry and you'll have to drive differently to deal with it. Temps change, fluids get spilled, etc. so you can't just plan on driving the same corner the same way every time.

Starting out, you'll have far more things that you can change as a driver or being your own setup guy that will change your times more than you'll get from spending out the nose to try and have the fastest possible rubber on your tires.

[davew]

I normally stay out of these discussions. This one has stayed fairly calm and to the point. Since I just wasted 45 minutes reading the entire thread and the entire blog postings, I will make a comment.

To sum up the original post and blog would be "I would like to do the entire MARRS series but I can not afford to do so. I can't afford the travel cost, the tire cost nor the time off work". And SCCA is not safe.

You belong to the Washington DC REGION of the SCCA. WDCR may or may not have a championship for its members. You also have a Regional series, called MARRS that is a Regional (defined as a geographic area) that includes several SCCA Regions. For a competitor who lives near one of the away tracks, Summit Point is an away track. So the guy who lives near Charlotte has only one nearby tow, while every other MARRS race is "away".

So your concern over travel costs is directly related to where you live. Either move your home, not feasable in most cases, or live with the tow. Or vote with your entry fees and do not attend the races that are not within your budget. Believe me, if a race consistently has low attendence, it will get dropped from the schedule.

Can't afford the time off work; not much any of us can do about that. We all have to make decisions based on family and other commitments. I have missed family events to go race. I have missed races for family events. We each have to make that choice. The need to test is something that some of us need more than others. I spent the first 9 years of my driving career at one track. I firmly believe that has hurt my ability to learn new tracks. Yet, Voytek can show up at a new track and be as fast as the locals in the first few laps. Regularly driving different tracks will make you a better driver in the long run. But that is a different subject.

On the tire situation, I tend to agree with you. My estimate is that the tire part of the equation has gone up about 20%. Hoosiers cost more and do not last as long. They also go away before they wear out. This is difficult for inexperienced drivers to understand and to know when their tires have no more "good" left in them. Unfortunately there is nothing you, me, nor the WDCR officials can do ablout that. SCCA in Topeka signed a 3 year contract that we are stuck with. It should be noted that prior to the contract, the majority of drivers with an opinion, wanted Hoosiers. So we got majority rule. It should also be noted that there is far less profit in the Hoosiers than the Toyo tires for the suppliers/middle men.

The quality of any driver school is controlled by the people putting it on. Instructors, stewards, event planners, etc. In my part of the country we have SCCA and Midwestern Council. We also have NASA, but I do not participate with them so I have no opinion. The MC school is only one day and is FAR superior to the 2 day SCCA school. Drivers with zero track experience come out capable of running in the race the next day.

Sanctioning bodies do not keep drivers from running into each other. Rules do not keep drivers from running into each other. Neither do track management, nor Stewards, nor driver schools, nor car classification. DRIVERS RUN EACH OTHER ALL ON THEIR OWN It is the attitude of the experienced/respected drivers that needs to be brought upon the poor drivers.

It sounds like you are fairly well respected amongst your local racers. If you leave or even curtail your participation with SCCA you will be missed.

I am done
Now back to your regularly scheduled biatching.

Dave

[DrDomm]

Are Hoosiers required for MARRS or WDCR? Just curious. I might have missed that somewhere. I'm not a huge fan of them, but am figuring some of the nuance out.

[Glenn]

Are Hoosiers required for MARRS or WDCR? Just curious. I might have missed that somewhere. I'm not a huge fan of them, but am figuring some of the nuance out.

Depends on class.......SM Yes, SSM, Toyo's

[jeopardyracing]

Are Hoosiers required for MARRS or WDCR? Just curious. I might have missed that somewhere. I'm not a huge fan of them, but am figuring some of the nuance out.

The change came in this year. In 2011 it was RA-1 for SM and SSM, in 2012 they changed to SM uses Hoosiers. That change and the expanded travel schedule are the two changes that are controversial in the region. NASA Mid Atlantic is still RA-1, so in the past you could race one car with either club. Now drivers who want to race SM need to choose which club and stick to it.

[Glenn]

[jeopardyracing]

The change came in this year. In 2011 it was RA-1 for SM and SSM, in 2012 they changed to SM uses Hoosiers. That change and the expanded travel schedule are the two changes that are controversial in the region. NASA Mid Atlantic is still RA-1, so in the past you could race one car with either club. Now drivers who want to race SM need to choose which club and stick to it.

Or they could race SM with SCCA and uses the Toyos? I think this is legal but of course they wouldn't be fast. I did that two races ago - raced an SM in ITA using RA-1s just to get back into the swing. So they can do that, they just wouldn't be competitive.

[Glenn]

Or they could race SM with SCCA and uses the Toyos? I think this is legal but of course they wouldn't be fast. I did that two races ago - raced an SM in ITA using RA-1s just to get back into the swing. So they can do that, they just wouldn't be competitive.

Or LEGAL!

[jeopardyracing]

Or LEGAL!

That's what I was wondering Glenn - if it was even legal. I believe in the NJ region where I just races in ITA the tire was Hoosier but the RA-1 was allowed, so theoretically I could have done that. I guess someone who didn't own Hoosiers could race with RA-1s and then just DQ'd if they only wanted to out for seat time (a poster on Facebook made that suggestion and I thought it was interesting).

[jeopardyracing]

Glenn can you articulate why my posts are so frustrating to you? Is the point that guys who can't travel for the away rounds are free to just come out and do the races they want, and don't have to worry about making all of the rounds? IE as Mike said, that doing all the rounds isn't at all mandatory, so the focus shouldn't be on championship standings but that we should just focus on racing for the experience of racing? I'm trying to understand.

[James York]

Just because I don't know and am curious... Is a MARRS sanctioned race a "national" (running SM) or regional (with sups requiring Hoosier)?