563 replies to this topic

[Bruce Wilson]

However till its a proven solution it's just a statement of intent.
 

 

Exactly!!!!  That is why the whole proposal -- 1.6 union idea is a crock.

 

Who is going to prove what?  The ONLY way to "prove" anything is to just go racing with changes.  Everyone agrees that you'll never get the cars exactly dead on, so forget the dyno, make some changes and go racing for a while.  Someone said it before, and I may have been harsh in my words, but the change needed is really not that big, just enough to be able to pass in the draft.  HP/weight changes, CAI, etc. just make the problem more of a distance equation, which gets worse when you add hills, which is why I'm saying compression + displacement, + flywheel might be enough to buy that simple pass back.  At the front, inches make a WORLD of difference!

[Jim Drago]

which is why I'm saying compression + displacement, + flywheel might be enough to buy that simple pass back.

LMAO by the use of the word "might"

[Bruce Wilson]

What's your plan JIm? retire the 1.6? Yes our opinions differ greatly.  You think that SM should move into the future and I think not.  I predict that SM will go the direction of the Sprite over the next 10-20 years, because that is the way racing works over time.  The MX5 class has no traction and there's no way to bring the new cars into the class without the  EXACT same issues happening again.  

 

Back to your laughing you ass off comment. These cars are not going to ever be equal, so you try things until they get better.  Were you crazy when you tried to get the suspension upgrades, and now you're much smarter?  No, you were on board then.  Now that you've wised up, you think there is no solution.  Hey I know where your coming from, try being an RE some day   

[Jim Drago]

What's your plan JIm? retire the 1.6? Yes our opinions differ greatly.  You think that SM should move into the future and I think not.  I predict that SM will go the direction of the Sprite over the next 10-20 years, because that is the way racing works over time.  The MX5 class has no traction and there's no way to bring the new cars into the class without the  EXACT same issues happening again.  
 
Back to your laughing you ass off comment. These cars are not going to ever be equal, so you try things until they get better.  Were you crazy when you tried to get the suspension upgrades, and now you're much smarter?  No, you were on board then.  Now that you've wised up, you think there is no solution.  Hey I know where your coming from, try being an RE some day   

Bruce
You havent raced in what 3-4 years? So most of your info is from here and what your group of guys tell you.

I have stated this a million times.. The class should move forward, there is no need to bring in the 06 up cars now, but in next 5-6 years it should be thought about. Perhaps set some dates and plans so people can make plans accordingly.

I have heard all of this nonsense before. Drago wants to hold the 1.6 back. he can't make weight in a 1.6, He wants to sell his 99's, blah blah . I really could care less about any of that. Many of the vocal 1.6 guys here, you know their names accused me of all this. On my own dime in 2012, I proved they were wrong. The car is and was competitive. Unfortunately, it is an antiquated 25 year POS in almost every way. It is the LCD, that is not an insult or slam, it is just fact. it is the smallest engine, it is the only non 1.8 engine, it had an ECU that looks like it belongs in an old Tube TV. The AFM is absolute junk. So yes, I think it is time we start to move forward. I don't think we keep slowing the other cars ( relative to the 1.6)
If you give the 1.6 much of anything, it will be the car to have. That is a colossal mistake. If changes are made in such that the class flips on its head again to build 1.6 cars, it will be a big mistake. I have proposed the 10.0( It specs) I would love it. I can tell you point blank.. If the 1.6 is given much of anything, you will see me racing one in Daytona. That will make the doubters happy right up until I don't win. Anything short of a win will prove it did not get enough, which is STUPIDITY. Which is why I feel your "results" theory is also the wrong way to go. If anyone switches from an NB to a 1.6, the adjustment made was dead was wrong as no one in their right mind chooses a 1.6 if the cars are adjusted correctly.

So if you want average 1.6 cars to race with top prep NB cars.. give them the compression

If you want average cars and average drivers in 1.6 cars to race with NB guys, give them compression, 25 plus lbs and an intake


If you want top prepped and driven 1.6 cars to race with the same NB cars. Drop the weight 25 lbs on the 1.6.

The best solution for parity is to:
A.) throw out all NA cars effective 1/1/16, 1/1/17 or whatever you like.. pick a date.

B.) Allow NA 1.8 engines in their entirety(wires, brakes, rotors and all) in 90-93 cars, pull the plates on all NA 1.8 cars. If needed adjust the plates on NB cars to match Hp/TQ of the unrestricted NA 1.8's. (very easily doable) Pick a weight that all cars run at 2350? 2400?


If you want "parity' option A or Option B will get you there completely! If you want more of the same.. Continue on with plates, weight, intakes, flywheels etc. Granted it is much easier for me to advocate this as a civilian But none the less, it is 100% accurate.


The ideas of weight, intake, compression, flywheel etc are all bandaids to the elephant in the room. The cars WILL always be different. You know the saying, there is no replacement for displacement. A 1.6 engine will never have matching or similar tq curves to the 1.8 engine. DD is on a crusade for the Holy grail, good luck.


bringing the 06 crs in at some point will be a mess, it will bring all these same problems back, but we will have to deal with it eventually. have not thought it through.. But off the top of my head.. Run the cars together for 3-4 years with a date picked in advance that effective 1/1/22-25 only only 06-15 are eligible? There needs to be a plan.

[Bruce Wilson]

Bruce
You havent raced in what 3-4 years? So most of your info is from here and what your group of guys tell you.
 

 

Not true Jim!  I haven't raced full seasons for the last 3 years, but I've raced both regional and Majors!

 

Look, this discussion is going nowhere and now your trying to sling mud, so I'm out of here!!!

[Jim Drago]

my apologies, I thought you had been completely out

[Bruce Wilson]

Apology accepted...  Just know that it sucks getting old when you've had the taste of victory in your prime.  It will happen to you and everyone else here too.  Covet those 5 dollar trophies with all your hearts my friends.

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

BruceYou havent raced in what 3-4 years? So most of your info is from here and what your group of guys tell you.I have stated this a million times.. The class should move forward, there is no need to bring in the 06 up cars now, but in next 5-6 years it should be thought about. Perhaps set some dates and plans so people can make plans accordingly.I have heard all of this nonsense before. Drago wants to hold the 1.6 back. he can't make weight in a 1.6, He wants to sell his 99's, blah blah . I really could care less about any of that. Many of the vocal 1.6 guys here, you know their names accused me of all this. On my own dime in 2012, I proved they were wrong. The car is and was competitive. Unfortunately, it is an antiquated 25 year POS in almost every way. It is the LCD, that is not an insult or slam, it is just fact. it is the smallest engine, it is the only non 1.8 engine, it had an ECU that looks like it belongs in an old Tube TV. The AFM is absolute junk. So yes, I think it is time we start to move forward. I don't think we keep slowing the other cars ( relative to the 1.6)If you give the 1.6 much of anything, it will be the car to have. That is a colossal mistake. If changes are made in such that the class flips on its head again to build 1.6 cars, it will be a big mistake. I have proposed the 10.0( It specs) I would love it. I can tell you point blank.. If the 1.6 is given much of anything, you will see me racing one in Daytona. That will make the doubters happy right up until I don't win. Anything short of a win will prove it did not get enough, which is STUPIDITY. Which is why I feel your "results" theory is also the wrong way to go. If anyone switches from an NB to a 1.6, the adjustment made was dead was wrong as no one in their right mind chooses a 1.6 if the cars are adjusted correctly.So if you want average 1.6 cars to race with top prep NB cars.. give them the compressionIf you want average cars and average drivers in 1.6 cars to race with NB guys, give them compression, 25 plus lbs and an intakeIf you want top prepped and driven 1.6 cars to race with the same NB cars. Drop the weight 25 lbs on the 1.6.The best solution for parity is to:A.) throw out all NA cars effective 1/1/16, 1/1/17 or whatever you like.. pick a date.B.) Allow NA 1.8 engines in their entirety(wires, brakes, rotors and all) in 90-93 cars, pull the plates on all NA 1.8 cars. If needed adjust the plates on NB cars to match Hp/TQ of the unrestricted NA 1.8's. (very easily doable) Pick a weight that all cars run at 2350? 2400?If you want "parity' option A or Option B will get you there completely! If you want more of the same.. Continue on with plates, weight, intakes, flywheels etc. Granted it is much easier for me to advocate this as a civilian But none the less, it is 100% accurate.The ideas of weight, intake, compression, flywheel etc are all bandaids to the elephant in the room. The cars WILL always be different. You know the saying, there is no replacement for displacement. A 1.6 engine will never have matching or similar tq curves to the 1.8 engine. DD is on a crusade for the Holy grail, good luck.bringing the 06 crs in at some point will be a mess, it will bring all these same problems back, but we will have to deal with it eventually. have not thought it through.. But off the top of my head.. Run the cars together for 3-4 years with a date picked in advance that effective 1/1/22-25 only only 06-15 are eligible? There needs to be a plan.

I was wondering would it be to hard to start a new class ( 06-14 ) for the NC as a regional class without adding them to the sm class ?
I know scca doesn't want to add anymore classes but you and I know some of the other classes are just taking up space with low car counts.i for one and I'm sure a lot of other guys would love to see and race this new class with the cars all being on the same platform (parity ) imagine that !

I for one believe if they add the NC cars to the sm class it would kill the class for a good couple of years and think that would be a bad chose for scca to make.

[LarryKing]

 

I was wondering would it be to hard to start a new class ( 06-14 ) for the NC as a regional class without adding them to the sm class ?

 

You mean like SM5

[Jim Drago]

You mean like SM5

exactly, you beat me to it

[davew]

The best solution for parity is to:
A.) throw out all NA cars effective 1/1/16, 1/1/17 or whatever you like.. pick a date.

B.) Allow NA 1.8 engines in their entirety(wires, brakes, rotors and all) in 90-93 cars, pull the plates on all NA 1.8 cars. If needed adjust the plates on NB cars to match Hp/TQ of the unrestricted NA 1.8's. (very easily doable) Pick a weight that all cars run at 2350? 2400?


I have been advocating Plan B for years. With a couple adjustments.

 

Allow the easy swap for 1.6. Use the 1.6 computer and wiring harness. You need to extend some wires, but it works.

Do not eliminate restricter plates. You may need to adjust the plates slightly. Eliminating the NA plate and adjusting the NB plate will make the cars faster, which would be fun. But will not make the racing any better. Plus we will start chewing up tires, brakes, transmissions even faster than we are now. One advantage of the plates is it keeps the cars reliable.

The 1.6 engine can still run. We just won't talk about parity any more.

 

Dave

[Jim Drago]

Allow the easy swap for 1.6. Use the 1.6 computer and wiring harness. You need to extend some wires, but it works.

The 1.6 engine can still run. We just won't talk about parity any more.
 
Dave

Since we are playing in never never land I would not choose a NA 1.8 with the #$%%^ 1.6 computer and AFM. It would not compete heads up with the 94/97 1.8 cars. So if someone is really going to go through all this, they should do be able to compete heads up. But as I have been saying for years.. YOU CAN DO THIS RIGHT NOW.. Buy a damaged or donor 94/97 car, swap all the stuff, use 1.8 dash wires and have you are compliant as a 94/97 car. new inspection and log book.

The real question is why arent people doing this now who are complaining in 1.6 cars?

1) They don't want to spend the money
2) they don't feel the NA 1.8 is competitive either
3) they don't think this is compliant ( which is incorrect)
4) They are waiting for an easy fix or for their car to become more advantaged.

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

You mean like SM5

Ok I don't know what I was thinking about !

That being said then why do guys keep bring up about letting the NC cars into our class if we have sm5 we shouldn't have to worry about it then ?

[davew]

I agree completely about doing the 1.8 computer and harness swap. But, for the guys on a budget, I would ALLOW the 1.6 computer etc to be used. For a few hundred dollars plus the price of a motor you would have a NA 1.8 in a weekend, even for the mechanically challenged.

 

What do you think Davey Dew? Would that give you your much needed torque at a reasonable price?

 

I would not get too worried about the MX5 coming into SM. The car is soooo totally different it would be hard to equalize. You also do not have the quantity of donors, there where a lot of automatics and power hardtops built. Then subtract the 5 speed cars and the supply dwindles pretty good.

 

Dave

[FTodaro]

 So yes, I think it is time we start to move forward. I don't think we keep slowing the other cars ( relative to the 1.6)
 

I think this is an important point.

 

at this point, what ever they decide to do for the 1.6 it should be to bring it up not bring everyone down to the 1.6

 

I would like to see the number of 1.6 cars being raced Nationally. I know people are going to say that no one will race that car because its not competitive. but that is just opinion not fact. if you get the 1.6 to pass in the draft as mentioned above, so that its competitive. would someone building a car today pick the 1.6, i doubt it, to may other advantages to the newer cars.

 

But lets not keep adding wt and plates to the rest of the field. I am going to be driving an armor plated Hummer soon.

[LarryKing]

To reiterate: In my division 1.6 cars comprise approximately 30-40% of the entries at non-Major events.

 

Suppose next January the SCCA says no more 1.6s.

 

How many drivers would/could upgrade to a newer car?

 

Does the SCCA want to drive away 30% of its SM entries, a class that largerly supports the regional races?

 

Just askin

 

W~

[Ron Alan]

 

 

Suppose next January the SCCA says no more 1.6s.

 

 

W~

Wont happen. But a 1.6 only class?  Would that be so bad? Still all run together?

 

Several regions are ahead of the curve and already have 1.6 only classes!

[davew]

In my opinion, the 1.6 would never be eliminated. Only taken out of the parity discussion. Similar to the older Formula cars that are now classified as "Club Formula whatever". They know they won't be competitive against a modern car. But they can still have fun.

 

D

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

What I don't like is how a lot of people on here assume there isn't any good drivers or National drivers in an NA car. Yes I would agree that 60% of NA drivers now are Regional only now. I would take a guess and say 70% of the NB guys started in a NA car. The first year the NB was allowed in the class it wasn't a big issue and the NA cars were still competitive and wasn't until changing of the rules over the last few years and has left the NA behind.

So let's rewind to the beginning and see what has changed since then and that could be the issue !

[LarryKing]

What Kuch said.

 

Why was the adjustable timing wheel and fuel pressure regulator necessary?