563 replies to this topic

[Jim Drago]

How about we phrase the question differently. How many people are willing to dump $30k into a 1.6?

 

Funnily enough, they both have the same answer! ZERO. If the 1.6 was competitive in the current rule set, someone would build one. Simple as that.

Not true.. 

We did this in 2012.. proved the point. The car dominated teh majors in the SE and then won the June Sprints where that car can't compete.. 

Did nothing, changed no opinions

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

What???  Did I really say that Jim?  Where?
 
Sutherland
Linse
Schultz
Schrader
Charlie??
Even Sean could win a Majors!  sorry baby, I love you too!  
 
Just go look at past West coast Majors results...
yes, they drove 99s this year (except Linse), because duh...  But we have a big fleet of top prepped ($35k+) 1.6s to chose from at any time.  And I think it's safe to say all of us would rather be driving the 1.6s. 
 
But again, why are you focusing on your "perceived" front runner list of who YOU think is fast and not the class as a whole.  Shortsightedness is the problem of the past and I hope it's not a problem of the future.
 
Way too much rationalization about past decisions going on here.  I'm out for a while...

You forgot TBuras,but let guess that wasn't a top prepped 1.6 and who's car was that ?

[Jim Drago]

You forgot TBuras,but let guess that wasn't a top prepped 1.6 and who's car was that ?

There is a pretty big difference between TBuras and all on that list. No way to contradict you there with out being a dick. While I have nothing for but respect for all on that list. If that list showed up to any major on the east coast, I would say 1-2 "may" compete for a top five, but I seriously doubt any of them win in any year car.

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

There is a pretty big difference between TBuras and all on that list. No way to contradict you there with out being a dick. While I have nothing for but respect for all on that list. If that list showed up to any major on the east coast, I would say 1-2 "may" compete for a top five, but I seriously doubt any of them win in any year car.

Sorry Jim i hope no hard feelings but I had to throw that one out there !

[38bfast]

For someone to be compelled to build a top 1.6 it would have to be an over dog. It cost more than any year out there to get it to top level prep. So if we get the car to within parity it still at a disadvantage as the hard way to get it there. So if its on par with all the rest none of the top drivers would bother switching. Then race rexults would still not change and the bitching would still continue. So the only way to get the top drivers to switch the car would have to be above par to justify the added cost.

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

Ralph,I don't think the goal is to get guys to start building NA cars because they just cost way more money to build then the NB cars do. We just want everyone that has a NA car the ability to upgrade what ever it is we need to get a little closer in parity. That is way cheaper for us to do rather then us building a new car.

Just remember even if I sell my car and get 8k for it I will still have to add 12-15k on top of that to get into a good prepped NB car. Yes there are cheaper NB cars out there but if I'm making the change I want a good level prepped car. So instead of us doing that, having to build a new motor or suspension parts,or what ever the change may be will be still way cheaper for us.

Now I wish I had an answer for us but I don't,it's going to take someone way smarter then me. But I will say I would gladly be a test dummy ( dummy being the key word here ) and be up for trying anything !

[38bfast]

Buch my point is that if we get the car where it needs to be it still will be precived as an underdog. Key word is perceived. We would have to way overshoot the mark to change the perception.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Buch my point is that if we get the car where it needs to be it still will be precived as an underdog. Key word is perceived. We would have to way overshoot the mark to change the perception.

 

Thank God we have one with a brain!

[Michael Novak]

For someone to be compelled to build a top 1.6 it would have to be an over dog. It cost more than any year out there to get it to top level prep. So if we get the car to within parity it still at a disadvantage as the hard way to get it there. So if its on par with all the rest none of the top drivers would bother switching. Then race rexults would still not change and the bitching would still continue. So the only way to get the top drivers to switch the car would have to be above par to justify the added cost.

  EXACTLY>>>>>>>>>>>   IT WILL COST WAY MORE TO BUILD JUST TO BE EVEN....  You cant give it a bigger break because it is expensive ---thus no one is going to build them....  SIMPLE

[Ron Alan]

Ralph, Kuch, Kyle and others who post or agree the 1.6 is more expensive to build...please remember your not always preaching to the choir! New members come and go here all the time and these statements can be misleading if not put into the proper context!

 

Assuming one buys a donor(NA or NB) in relatively equal condition, (NB will cost more)Minus the motor...I see ZERO difference in the cost of a new build. The NA will have to  buy an intake and a diff(comp or torsen)which will get it back close to the cost of a NB donor. From here all the rest is the same for the most part.

 

Now the motor. Here is where the difference can lie in the "Top Prep" argument. Both donor motors are dropped off at the "Pro" builders shop, built to the letter of the rules, and dropped back in the car. 95% chance the NB motor is going to be within 2-3 hp of the best legal motor out there with all its original donor parts on the car as it breaks in. The NA motor on the other hand is probably closer to 25% being even close to the best 1.6 motors with all its original donor parts back on and in the car.

 

So why?? Stock parts that flow air!!! There is a difference and the unrestricted NA motor is only going to be as good as all its parts combined! The restrictor in the NB motors for now is taking away the need to bin match or find all the best "flowing" parts! Though dont kid yourself that all the top guys and their builders are not doing this!

 

I think some of the decriptions of "WAY MORE" to build a top prep 1.6 car are overstated. But no doubt, top level 1.6 "MOTORS" can cost more to get there when you have to find 5-7 items that flow the best!

[38bfast]

Kuch I have been racking my small brain over this. I would love to see the 1.6 in the mix. I like inclusion not exclusion. Bottom line is the 1.6 will never be the same car as a 1.8, 99 or VVT car. so to make it work out it will have to suck out of the corners and make it up on the long end. Now the big problem is how do we do that. Lots of ideas without a lot of documentation to back it up. Also very few letters asking for a change with the accompanied data. 

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Ron, if you want cheap entry level car buy a used 1.6 and have the time of your life racing!  my advice to anyone looking at getting into SM!

 

but to build a top 1.6, its not just money, its dyno time X 1,000  = maybe a top1.6... very few racers are willing or skilled enough to do this...

 

but all the top drivers in the country have the skill and resources required, so if you give the 1.6 much to boost performance then you risk motivation for one of the top guys to do so.  

 

this is such an old argument and it sucks but is a reality.  

 

As for helping the 1.6 below 5000 i think we must understand that any change to the 1.6 then impacts the 99 and 01 which are not all that easy to balance against one another, if you give the 1.6 more then give the the 99 a bigger hole then you try that with the 01+ except the RP affects the 01 differently then the 99.  its like a dog chasing its tail, make one change to hunt down the other subsequent changes that will be needed to then maybe be no better off.

[Jim Drago]

Sorry Jim i hope no hard feelings but I had to throw that one out there !

No, not sure you understood. Todd's car was NOT top prep. The drive line was, but the car was falling apart. It has since been completely redone from the ground up and waiting for a new engine. So we will see what shakes out on the rules. Todd and the car proved my point two years ago. He dominated the 2012 majors season in the SE, he won the sprints. There is video of the car pushing our top 99's up the straight at Road America. Tod date, NO ONE has watched that video and given me a time mark on that video that shows the car to be at a disadvantage. The proof is undeniable, yet all of you still complain and say the car is not there and needs help. We don't race dynos and TQ graphs.

Again, give it whatever you guys like, I have no issue with it... Nor is it my decision at this point. If need be, we will build one. Which would be a really silly decision IMO, ( making the oldest car the best) but that is all that will satisfy most of the 1.6 guys on here complaining. Even with the 10.0:1 compression, the guys complaining will still be at a disadvantage and not winning anything, so the "results" will not not show parity. The problem will come when come when the car is given much of anything, proven front runners and shops will start racing them. I guess then the "results" will prove the parity.. IMO, that will prove we made a mistake.

[Ron Alan]

There is a pretty big difference between TBuras and all on that list. No way to contradict you there with out being a dick. While I have nothing for but respect for all on that list. If that list showed up to any major on the east coast, I would say 1-2 "may" compete for a top five, but I seriously doubt any of them win in any year car.

Its only human nature to route/side with those we know best! That said I agree with Jim...but not for any reason other than "Local" knowledge any many hours spent at different tracks. With few exceptions, smart money is always on the "best" local driver at his home track/tracks. We've seen this in great drivers that went east and did "ok". This year some great east drivers came west and did "ok".

My money would not be on Todd going to Portland...nor would my money be on Sutherland going to Sebring! 

 

That said...if we werent all homers...what would we have to banter about

[Jim Drago]

Its only human nature to route/side with those we know best! That said I agree with Jim...but not for any reason other than "Local" knowledge any many hours spent at different tracks. With few exceptions, smart money is always on the "best" local driver at his home track/tracks. We've seen this in great drivers that went east and did "ok". This year some great east drivers came west and did "ok".
My money would not be on Todd going to Portland...nor would my money be on Sutherland going to Sebring! 
 
That said...if we werent all homers...what would we have to banter about

I'm sure we could go into all the STR gate if we want to etc.. But none on that list was a threat to us at Laguna other than Charlie, and we had never even been there before. I don't know that "Ok" is how we did either, I finished p3 and P2 at regional and east coast guys would have finished 2-5-6-7-8 at the Runoffs had I not pulled in and STR gate not come to fruition. Coulda woulda shoulda.. But in this thread of hypotheticals, that is all we have. I will concede that STR gate is the only reason we finished ahead of anyone on that list if that makes everyone feel better as I agree we can only be comparing compliant cars. But the protesting individuals own words say that STR gate had little to do with the outcome. :)These guys are all very good, But I would not trade any of them for the guys I race against here regularly.

Runoffs are at Daytona this year boys.. If they think they have it, we welcome the challenge as does everyone else on this coast. we packed up and headed west, perhaps they will pack up and head east!

[Ron Alan]

Drennan, Carbonnel, Ghidinelli, Kaiser.  3 locals and one Pro driver with time at Laguna. Which Eaststreet car was 4th?

 

You made my point Jim And I consider you ,Craig and Eric great drivers for what its worth 

 

The other aspect is it is always hard to compare 1 race...but we try

 

 

BTW....Ralph and crew...the NA 1.8 needs an adjustment!!!!

[Jim Drago]

Drennan, Carbonnel, Ghidinelli, Kaiser.  3 locals and one Pro driver with time at Laguna. Which Eaststreet car was 4th?
 
You made my point Jim And I consider you ,Craig and Eric great drivers for what its worth 
 
The other aspect is it is always hard to compare 1 race...but we try
 
 
BTW....Ralph and crew...the NA 1.8 needs an adjustment!!!!

I fixed mine, but that week was a haze :0
I don't think that this proves your point at all. Who on the list that originally started this debate was ahead of p2,5,6,7? We didn't have kaiser, Drennan or Brian on that list? Again at a track they all knew and we did not. If they finished behind us there, it would be worse a a track we actually know somewhat. that is all I am trying to say

[Ron Alan]

My point was being a homer Bruce is being a homer as am i and you. I do think the guys on Bruces list are very good...some of the best in the West. Every day and race is different...there are always favorites. No guarantee that favorite will win...but smart money is always on the locals! 

[Jim Drago]

I do think the guys on Bruces list are very good...

So do I, but that is not what we are talking about
Jim

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

No, not sure you understood. Todd's car was NOT top prep. The drive line was, but the car was falling apart. It has since been completely redone from the ground up and waiting for a new engine. So we will see what shakes out on the rules. Todd and the car proved my point two years ago. He dominated the 2012 majors season in the SE, he won the sprints. There is video of the car pushing our top 99's up the straight at Road America. Tod date, NO ONE has watched that video and given me a time mark on that video that shows the car to be at a disadvantage. The proof is undeniable, yet all of you still complain and say the car is not there and needs help. We don't race dynos and TQ graphs.Again, give it whatever you guys like, I have no issue with it... Nor is it my decision at this point. If need be, we will build one. Which would be a really silly decision IMO, ( making the oldest car the best) but that is all that will satisfy most of the 1.6 guys on here complaining. Even with the 10.0:1 compression, the guys complaining will still be at a disadvantage and not winning anything, so the "results" will not not show parity. The problem will come when come when the car is given much of anything, proven front runners and shops will start racing them. I guess then the "results" will prove the parity.. IMO, that will prove we made a mistake.

Well all I have to say is that I'm working on buying a car now and if all the stars a line I will be on the grass is greener side this year !

Now I'm not saying by getting this car I'm going to be a sec. Faster at every track I go to but I do hope I'm faster. If for some reason I'm not I will gladly come on here and let people know that. Just so you know I was never upset over the rules and just ran with it. I always liked being the underdog because it made winning that much more fun. I always loved when I was accused of cheating and laught at them and told them they could check anything on the car they wanted. Then I told them when there done to also check the factory radio in the car because that still works as well. Oh crap is a radio a sm part ? Lol

With that all being said I will be selling a top notch Reg. Car and a better then mid pack major 1.6 for cheap if you know anyone ? Hint hint !!!