189 replies to this topic

[svvs]

I've never had the chance to "run with a team", but I'm lucky enough that friendly people around my ability level will work with me during qually or a race if it's convenient.  Sometimes we'll try to go out together to get a draft advantage.....sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.  I know my current driving ability and confidence level being nose to tail through corners would not help me.

 

I have a fair number of friends who run with a team type setup, and there is a distinct advantage in the data sharing, sharing of spares if needed, and learning from different setups.  During a test day once I signed up with Flatout for some data coaching, and was pretty amazed at how useful it was to have a top guy like Nick overlay his data on mine and Amy's and a few other drivers.

 

There are a few "informal" teams up here in the NE, LTD racing being the most famous (and probably the funniest).  No hauler, no fancy tent, just a bunch of guys who hang out together in the paddock and take care of each other when needed.  Every little bit helps, and being nice to your fellow competitors goes a long way towards cooperation and fair racing on the track.

 

-Vick

[Danny Steyn]

As I said above, I love the bump drafting aspect of this class. I love how it influences races.

 

But the GCR emphatically forbids it. As a class we have been doing it "illegally" for years, but in recent months SCCA Majors program has been listening and has been allowing it to happen (flag station calls for front-rear contact have been overlooked). 

 

Legalized bump drafting rewards team driving even more than before, so the question remains, is this good for the long term health of the class? 

 

At the June Sprints 2 years ago we were told emphatically, all bump drafting would result in a DQ. The drivers weren't happy about it but we did what we were told, we never bumped where anyone could see us!

 

Just interested in hearing how all feel about this, not just the guys at the front

[pat slattery]

I  have no issue with Bump drafting or team racing during a race, pretty much impossible to enforce and is part of racing.

 

My issue is with team qualifying with 2-3 cars lining up and pushing each other around the track to qualify.  We all know 2-3 can go faster punching a hole thru the air than a single car, plus it can help get one of your weaker team members higher up.

 

We control that tactic at the WKA with loss of your best lap, if you don't attempt to make a pass and continue to push.  That is what I am referring to have the courage to make calls  like that.  It works.

 

Jim you know that team qualifying works, or your team wouldn't be doing it..

[Blake Clements]

I blame Jim Drago for it, all of it.       

 

 

Convenient to blame the SCCA and courage...  We are a club, we can only blame ourselves. 

 

99% have been crying for bump drafting and " SCCA should have  the courage to legalize that"

 

Has ANYONE complained or asked for a change here? Or is it like everything else, we just complain and blame the SCCA.   

[Keith Andrews]

It definitely is suspect in qualifying.  I don't know how you could keep people from a draft of convenience.  Single car qualifying or significantly controlled track spacing would take too much time.

 

In my mind the only people that can do this successfully are the really good drivers with lots of experience and similar equipment.   It is hard to do it right.  

 

I still believe though that the fastest most consistent driver wins the race.  Sometimes it is hard to look in the mirror and realize you just got beat on a given day.

[Ken Quartuccio]

Two cars tandems are in my opinion are just the start .
At VIR, jersey and the glen I found a good three car draft was much better than two
I think finding the right partners now is critical to going forward
I think working with just anybody for a lap then someone else the next
Will be hard to win .driving style has so much to do with it that just teaming up because you are under the same
Banner isn't enough . Admire picked the perfect driver to work with his son and I think jim knows
Which of his four friends work best with each other and where in line .
There is so much that it adds to the racing and strategy to run up front
I love it . This is as close to pro racing I want to get .

[Jim Drago]

 Sometimes it is hard to look in the mirror and realize you just got beat on a given day.

Amen to that, always seems like lots of excuses to go around..




my opinion
There is no doubt it is beneficial. Many on here seem VERY hypocritical, maybe I am just reading wrong, but I don't think so. I could care less whether they separate us or not in qualifying, the qualifying order and races will remain pretty much unchanged IMO.

What I am hearing in this thread..
Well, I do it when I can with a similar speed driver on track.
I would do it if I could and was better at it.
I would do it but then I would have to fund another driver capable of driving to me ability.
etc.

I don't hear anyone who is morally opposed other than it benefits others more than it does themselves? I don't like that others do it all the time and better than me? Seems very hypocritical to me. Either it is OK and you participate in similar practices or you disagree and you do not participate, no middle ground.




And I agree with what Blake said as well, it is all my fault, but that is a given

[Jamz14]

Just this last weekend I was talking to a NASA class official that was describing a tactic of E30s being used to push SMs on a Roval course during qualifying here in our region. This is so outside the idea of what qualifying is supposed to be and represent.

 

Jim posed the question of what are we asking SCCA to consider? What do we want them to do? We ( at least you guys, Im a NASA member ) are SCCA and if you want something changed, propose it. Ok, but me personally I feel like I have a 0.05% chance of influencing anything to SCCA. We as a group here on this forum have had this discussion before. We couldn't come to a consensus about what qualifying is supposed to represent amongst ourselves. What chance do we have of changing how it is done when we cannot even convince those same people informally here outside of the SCCA review board process?

 

So call me a defeatist but I just don't care anymore about changing anything. We will comply with the rules as they are and as they are influenced by the top teams and influential individuals. The rules as they are written about qualifying get us close to the front at the start of the race which is good enough for us. It is then up to the driver to  either make a good start and pass some of the people that qualified better than their outright speed warrants, or we can then use them as our impromptu defacto team to pull us towards the end of the race, at which time a good driver has preserved their tires and car and will be able to affect a pass for the win. At least that is the idea anyway. Still not fast enough to fully implement this strategy.

[pat slattery]

I don't believe any other major form of racing has team qualifying.  

[Ken Quartuccio]

Amen to that, always seems like lots of excuses to go around..my opinionThere is no doubt it is beneficial. Many on here seem VERY hypocritical, maybe I am just reading wrong, but I don't think so. I could care less whether they separate us or not in qualifying, the qualifying order and races will remain pretty much unchanged IMO.What I am hearing in this thread..Well, I do it when I can with a similar speed driver on track.I would do it if I could and was better at it.I would do it but then I would have to fund another driver capable of driving to me ability.etc.I don't hear anyone who is morally opposed other than it benefits others more than it does themselves? I don't like that others do it all the time and better than me? Seems very hypocritical to me. Either it is OK and you participate in similar practices or you disagree and you do not participate, no middle ground.And I agree with what Blake said as well, it is all my fault, but that is a given

Jim
All anybody who is against it or thinks it is bad for the class
Is try it once and see how good it feels to do it right
And they will be hooked like a addict

[Chris70]

S.A.C. has ONLY  two team rules :

1- Don't take your teammate out.

2-Try to beat everyone else.

Compare how Saturday developed  and them look at Sunday. End result was the same.

Enough said.

I will not comment any more in this tread.

Cheers

Ademir

[Bruce Wilson]

Amen to that, always seems like lots of excuses to go around..

What I am hearing in this thread..
Well, I do it when I can with a similar speed driver on track.
I would do it if I could and was better at it.
I would do it but then I would have to fund another driver capable of driving to me ability.
etc.
 

[Rob Burgoon]

Chill out Jim (Drago), just because people are discussing whether it helps and if and how they have done it doesn't necessarily address the question of whether it's good for the class long term or not.  There's no hypocrisy in that.  Nobody's ethics are being challenged.

[Jim Drago]

Felt pretty cool ( have air set at like 68) but thanks
Read or written the wrong way I guess.   I really could care less if allowed or not allowed.  I could not be more honest about that. We( as will others) adapt to whatever the rules are. 
 
to clarify...
Do I think it is detrimental? No I don't. 
Do I think it adds to SM? No, I don't
Do I think it should be allowed/disallowed? No real opinion, would go with the majority.
 
Do I think those posting it is not good for the class or should be changed feel this way at least partially because it doesn't benefit them? Yes I do, 100%
 
For some there will always seems the need for a reason( excuse) why some drivers are winning and others aren't. The latest being team driving. Looking at the bright side, it has at least shifted the parity and marked tire debate for a little while.  Upcoming debates.. Yearly budget caps



On a serious note.. If you feel it is detrimental, we would need to hash out a realistic way to implement such a plan and the enforcement in such a plan? I have not heard anything along those lines.

[Blake Clements]

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Whirlyball

 

Originations of "Team Driving"

[Rob Burgoon]

There's always a risk of losing your advantage when you do a better job of racing to the rules.  As soon as a v-8 powered "SM" pushes me to pole, we can expect rule changes.

[pat slattery]

I guess each team could form  a peloton, as they do in the Tour de France

[Cy Peake]

There are a few "informal" teams up here in the NE, LTD racing being the most famous (and probably the funniest).  No hauler, no fancy tent, just a bunch of guys who hang out together in the paddock and take care of each other when needed.  Every little bit helps, and being nice to your fellow competitors goes a long way towards cooperation and fair racing on the track.

 

-Vick

 

Appreciate the mention Vicktor.  We at LTD do this racing thing for FUN and thoroughly enjoy our time together at the track.  While we don't currently work together during qualifying, we will tend to seek each other out during races because it's just so much fun to race against each other in a tight pack.  We don't block, try not to rub and know that we'll be helping to fix any damage that we do to another's car.  Heck, two of our merry bunch even have radios and they giggle and whisper sweet nothings to each other all race long while they run nose to tail.  Most of us don't race nationals because the racing is taken too seriously and we don't enjoy it...plus the weekend format doesn't equate to maximizing our track time, which is what we're looking for.  We have more fun off track over good grilled food and beers, joking and wrenching on the cars all weekend.

 

I guess our idea of a " teammate" is different than the national level mindset but we do have the most fun at any given regional weekend and the word is spreading.  Some people need to relax a bit and focus on enjoying themselves.

[AW33COM]

^ I really like the post above.  I ran along these guys at NHMS and I wondered WTF is this LTD racing.  Now I get it.  Very cool/fun idea.

 

*bump drafting;  my heart tells me it does not belong in motorsports.  This is my personal opinion and everyone will be different, but I believe bump drafting seems dirty and not classy.  Racing was never about body contact.  Maybe good for Nascar show.  Right now the trend in sports cars (at least in ALMS) is to eliminate physical contact.   Fans don't like it, because it's cheating.

 

More, there is a small chance someone could get hurt from a bump draft push, and then people will realize it does not belong in motorsports. 

[Bench Racer]

Let's look at eliminating bump drafting which is two or more cars making front to rear physical contact. First ask yourself how many times in a given qualifying session or race session you make front/rear contact with another car other than for bump drafting. For hypothetic purpose let's say zero times. Write a rule eliminating bump drafting to go along with the existing rule GCR 6.11.1A. and implement a device similar to a crash shut off (or similar device) to the front and rear of each car. Intentional bump or not, end of your session. No decision need be made by other drivers or SCCA officials. You know the rules, play by the rules.