189 replies to this topic

[Tyler Kicera]

As a single car guy, it does suck to have a fast car but qualify behind dancing partners. I usually end up having to fight my way to the front and once I get there, there is no chance of catching the leaders(Saturdays SM race qual p12 vs Sunday qual p4). At the end of the day, I'm still for it. It puts more emphasis on qualifying for me and IMO with a momentum car it makes the racing more exciting.

[Jamz14]

Jim,

 

I agree with you that it is happening and readily apparent in racing too. But the problem lies in the stewards being able to make an accurate decision every time. There are cases where it won't be black and white and this will cause problems from people like Bench that want the rules applied 100% accurately 100% of the time. Not possible. However you can achieve that in qualifying. At least to a degree that would be acceptable for all.

 

I also agree with you that two cars working together is a great race tactic and I have no desire to remove that from the sport. As in all sports, the amount of practice dictates the skill to which something is accomplished. A point of opinion only; racing is much different than American stick and ball sports where some poor boy from Nebraska can practice on the basketball court all day long and actually have a reasonable shot of living his dream to become a star. Racing requires money to practice, lots of money. So though I don't want team tactics to leave racing at all, I also acknowledge the fact that the policy benefits the haves, and punishes heavily the have nots. That is why you see primarily single car guys on the opposite side of the issue than you.

 

I know you work your arse off to be in the position you are in. But I also know many that can and do afford to show up at races, jump in a car, go play with their buddies, practice all the time, bang up the car, and drive into the pits and ask that the garage they are driving for to fix up the car and give it back to them for the next race in top notch form and in time to do it all over again the next day. ( just ask one of the major socal garages about this from the last race at laguna)  Meanwhile there are a lot of single car guys like myself out there that work our arses off fixing up the car while everyone else is at the bar -b -que enjoying beef, beer and ti%ties.

 

The solution for us single car guys is to work harder!!!! I may screw it up all the time, take the car the wrong way in setup, Etc. But there are few if any that work harder than me at the track. I do this to offset the disadvantages I have in finance and practice time. I don't hold it against anyone that they have the funds to run a better program than me, but I also don't deny the advantages that money brings over single car guys that don't run for a top notch garage like East St.   I say all this just to explain why you see a disparity in opinion from single car guys and garage team guys only. Not complaining about it or care. I accepted that reality when we started racing. Ultimately I think we are better off for our situation. My kid learns what kind of work is required and appreciates the help he gets from not only me, but guys like you and some of your garage members that have been extremely kind to us this last year. We also have the CHANCE, to figure out how to build funding and sponsorship at this level that very well may be scaled to more sophisticated programs that are exponentially more expensive than SM that few if any of the guys here could afford to run even if they wanted to regardless of whether they are a single car team or a garage team member.

 

In my opinion, any efforts to make racing easier for guys that are on budgets is a noble and worthy cause as long as it does not sacrifice the quality of racing. Abandoning team tactics in the race diminishes the quality of racing. In qualifying it does not. IMO

[Johnny D]

Jamz14 is it "work harder" or smarter ?

You guys can team up but choose not too.

I think Danny said it at the start, I don't know who I'm running with but I'll be with someone.

 

Check practice time, see who's close to you and go talk to them?

On track, push somebody in front of you, get somebody to push that's behind you?

If it works it works, if it doesn't you tried. Hopefully no spin outs

J~

[LarryKing]

Not possible. However you can achieve that in qualifying.

 

Mustard packets.

 

I may have missed a comment or two but I really haven't seen any opinions whether bump-drafting is good for the class or not. My gut says anything that further separates the haves from the have nots will ultimately decrease participation.

[Jim Drago]

I guess I'm just not doing a good job conveying my point.. I give up
Time for others to express their point of view.

[Todd Green]

Yes, spelled out "legal"

Could you cite the rule that spells it out?

[Jamz14]

Mustard packets? Really? Ok, if that is what you guys want.

 

Johnny, hopefully both. I want to work harder and smarter than the competitors. However being somewhat new to the class, I know we work harder, and with time and all your guys help, we will work smarter too. This come with experience.

[Jamz14]

Jim,

 

You are doing a fine job conveying your point. I personally am not really disagreeing with you on your points. Just trying to make a case as to why single car teams might have a different point of view is all. We both feel that we will race however the group decides. We both feel that team tactics and BDing add flavor to a race. We both agree that cutoff switches as an enforcement tool is wrong. You see no difference between qualifying and racing, I see a fundamental difference between the two. 3 out of 4 for this group is really good!!!

[LarryKing]

I want a low cost, entry level class (again).

[Craig Berry]

this discussion has created more questions for me personally. Ok, so if we do not bump draft because its a competitive advantage for some (which I personally dont care or think it will change anything), but after that, my question is where does it end? No drafting with a team mate? What if someone says that person is no longer a team mate? What about anyone in the top 5 not being able to talk or share data because they might get faster, thus dicouraging others at the back even more?
We have a lot of rules, and to add more, especially shut off switches or mustard packets or throwing out a fast lap, in my opinion will just complicate and drive people away. I just dont know if its possible to legislate equality for all on the track. I am sure, things can be improved, but are things really bad now? Will this really change anything? Anyway, I do not have the answers.

[Muda]

I want a low cost, entry level class (again).

 

In your dreams, only.

[Brian Ghidinelli]

If we wanted time trialing, we'd go time trialing.  SM, probably more than any other class/series out there, offers very close racing where bump drafting can be part of it.  If you're a single car guy and you feel disadvantaged, it's time to find a partner.

 

The one place where this doesn't work is, ahem, when you tow across the country to a big race where you've never really driven with anyone.  The odds of successfully pairing up is low because it's really hard to put two or more cars together and go really fast.  But that impacts a teeny tiny percentage of drivers rendering this entire conversation the equivalent of a #firstworldproblem.  

 

No need to change anything in my opinion.  It will matter once again this year at Road America.  Won't be as much of an issue at Laguna, but maybe something to address for Daytona.

[Johnny D]

Could you cite the rule that spells it out?

So what's the call at Miller for the Runoffs?

J~

[DrDomm]

this discussion has created more questions for me personally. Ok, so if we do not bump draft because its a competitive advantage for some (which I personally dont care or think it will change anything), but after that, my question is where does it end? No drafting with a team mate? What if someone says that person is no longer a team mate? What about anyone in the top 5 not being able to talk or share data because they might get faster, thus dicouraging others at the back even more?
We have a lot of rules, and to add more, especially shut off switches or mustard packets or throwing out a fast lap, in my opinion will just complicate and drive people away. I just dont know if its possible to legislate equality for all on the track. I am sure, things can be improved, but are things really bad now? Will this really change anything? Anyway, I do not have the answers.

 

In business, there are antitrust laws to prevent competitors from working together to force other competition out of the marketplace. 

 

In professional golf (stroke play), it's against the rules for a playing partner to give advice to a competitor since it affects the outcome for other players.

 

In racing, it's life.  Figure it out, and make friends (or buy them) (or rent them a car).

[JBlaisdell]

So...what have we all figured out...

 

Make friends with someone like Charb (if you dare), cover your entire body with mustard (spicy brown smells best), run naked thru the paddock and steal the faster guys data, buy new stickers for all sessions ( even practice), steal and drink any unattended alcoholic beverages (left in plan view)...ohh, and I almost forgot...allow 1.6 cars a 1 lap head start (track dependent).

 

Did I forget anything?

[AW33COM]

If you're a single car guy and you feel disadvantaged, it's time to find a partner.

 

What about if you're a single guy, who does not feel disadvantaged?  Do I have to be hit from the back? Or can we agree that a none partner leading car has to signal B.D. first? 

[Craig Berry]

So...what have we all figured out...
 
Make friends with someone like Charb (if you dare), cover your entire body with mustard (spicy brown smells best), run naked thru the paddock and steal the faster guys data, buy new stickers for all sessions ( even practice), steal and drink any unattended alcoholic beverages (left in plan view)...ohh, and I almost forgot...allow 1.6 cars a 1 lap head start (track dependent).
 
Did I forget anything?

Finally somebody comes up with a plan I think most can agree on!

[LarryKing]

Do I have to be hit from the back?

 

Yes. Spec Miata racing and getting rear-ended go together like peas and carrots. It's even hotter if you're naked and covered in mustard at the time.

[LarryKing]

Proper bump drafting technique:

[Bench Racer]

The delete monster ate my previous post. Eh, as Frankie said, That's Life.

 

Anyone interested if you can or can not bump draft within the SCCA please see and understand post number 2 within this thread SCCA rule 6.11.1.A.  including the meaning of the word are with respect to the GCR. There are a couple written rule work arounds of this rule, one would be if the Chief Stewart drafted the supps previous to the pre-entry date to allow bump drafting with the other work around being that there is UNANIMOUS agreement by ALL affecetd competitors who have all ready entered, 

 

It's really quite simple if drivers care to follow the SCCA rules.

 

I am totally open to change provided rules are used to convince.

 

As one of our pro drivers mentioned in a different thread, all that's required to to bust some balls is drivers or officials to write paper and let the drivers videos do the talking. 

 

Nuff for me.