189 replies to this topic

[HoneyBadger - BrianW]

I like the idea of a hoods open peer tech after each session. This would give us an opportunity to poke around cars that seemed too fast, i.e. a pusher car. It's the only reasonable thing I can think of to try and eliminate potential issues. 

[davew]

While I like this idea. It does very little. The majority of drivers/techies/stewards etc have no clue what to look for. The handfull of us accross the country that do know what to look for are only going to say so much in public. Maybe a little in private. An open hood does not show me if you have a... Cam, porting, lightened crank, ecu etc.

 

Open hoods gives a warm fuzzy to most of you. But it really does not do much

 

Dave

[AW33COM]

Price point around $20,000.

 

I agree with your point a bit, but holly shit, for $20 f... gees I'll stick with my 37th place Miata.   Someone wrote about a $40k car.  This class needs a reality check, I paid $23k for one of the nicest F1000 machines. 

 

Maybe SM should drop all the rules and create one rule:  "Build the fastest SM with $7000 in parts without opening up a single component."

 

Having said that, the fact we start a thread about Bump Drafting, convert it into the usual parity, price, etc talk, makes me think maybe there is something else wrong rather than the rules

 

[FTodaro]

I agree with your point a bit, but holly shit, for $20 f... gees I'll stick with my 37th place Miata.   Someone wrote about a $40k car.  This class needs a reality check, I paid $23k for one of the nicest F1000 machines. 

 

Maybe SM should drop all the rules and create one rule:  "Build the fastest SM with $7000 in parts without opening up a single component."

 

Having said that, the fact we start a thread about Bump Drafting, convert it into the usual parity, price, etc talk, makes me think maybe there is something else wrong rather than the rules

Lemons Miata

limit the dollar value and anyone can come up and buy your car for that dollar value.

The only new rule i would support is no more new rules.

[MPR22]

Clearly SM is broken, only 60 entries at the Run-offs this year, probably only 75 next year.  

 

 

 

Danny, you are one of my favorite people in racing, you are a genuine great guy, but what the heck does team racing have to do with the health of the class.  Almost all forms of racing involve team tactics.  I don't care if it is on feet, bikes or cars.  Even in triathlons which is a pure individual event with real penalties for using team tactics it still happens.  My favorite part of racing cars is being part of a team, whether it be a formal team or even the ad-libbed teamwork that happens when you find yourself without your normal dancing partner. 

SM and SRF are the top two competitive classes in amateur road racing.  If you want to race somebody and have a reliable car that you don't spend hours and tons of money chasing setups (which in reality you don't have to do in most other classes because you aren't racing anyone)  then SM and SRF are the class for you.  

 

Any new cheap bargain basement class that attracts attention from the masses will soon become expensive.  Unless there is a claiming rule in place, people will spend whatever it takes to use the gray area to get an advantage.  Competition breeds costs think of it as inflation or demand side economics.  The higher the demand the higher the cost.   

 

If we didn't have huge number of people participating we wouldn't be having this discussion.  With the advent of the Teen Mazda Challenge we have more kids and dads than ever upping that ante, all for a chance to go drive MX-5 cup.  (me whi on keeboard just stopped working mid rant sorree)    That drives up the cost whi isn't anyone complaining,  because it makes the competition even better.  

 

Most people are in this class to challenge themselves against the best amateur road racers in the country, not because it is cheap.  If they want cheap, try CHONDA Karting perhaps, but I am sure those that want to win have driven up the cost. 

 

If you want hard nosed racing FUN, please race SM.  

[Bruce Wilson]

While I like this idea. It does very little. The majority of drivers/techies/stewards etc have no clue what to look for. The handfull of us accross the country that do know what to look for are only going to say so much in public. Maybe a little in private. An open hood does not show me if you have a... Cam, porting, lightened crank, ecu etc.

 

Open hoods gives a warm fuzzy to most of you. But it really does not do much

 

Dave

 

We do this from time to time and We've found a LOT of crazy stuff.  It allowed us to talk to the competitor and ask them questions like why are you missing the hood weather stripping or why does your filter housing have a huge gap. 

 

Totally  agree its not everything, but it's easy to do in impound and not a bad practice at all for finding low hanging fruit! 

[Jim Drago]

It certainly doesnt hurt.

[Jamz14]

Lets say I don't feel like opening my hood for everyone to look at. Am I compelled to do so? Do the rules require me to do this if you all decide you want it? Would a single nay vote disallow the stewards from forcing?

[davew]

If you have nothing to hide, why hide????

 

Meathead would know this better than I. But if the Stewards request an "Impound All" with an inspection of some underhood part. Let's say cowl seal. If you refuse the inspection you would be dq-ed and face penalties as described in the GCR. Meathead has this memorized, I am sure.

 

Now, if you request a private showing, so as not to expose your car to the masses, you would be allowed that option. I BELIEVE>

 

But again, what are you hiding? And you would be scorned by the masses and labeled a cheater just for hiding. Especially by the bench racer.

 

Dave

[Jim Drago]

Lets say I don't feel like opening my hood for everyone to look at. Am I compelled to do so? Do the rules require me to do this if you all decide you want it? Would a single nay vote disallow the stewards from forcing?

if the stewards order impound all with open hoods and trunks as they have in the past and you refuse, you can be hit with 6 month suspension.

If a bunch of competitors get together and all agree except you and they ask you to open your hood you can tell them, well, You can tell them whatever you like and you don't have to open anything.

[Bench Racer]

David, if you have been following my posts, at the VIR Majors event, the SCCA had an open session with SM racers and asked us for our input. The class overwhelmingly indicated that they wanted bump drafting to be "OK". SCCA took it under consideration. It would only apply to SM (same bumper/fender heights, plastic bumpers etc) and in many instances it is felt that it promotes safer racing (up for debate of course). Since VIR at all the Eastern Conference Majors the SCCA officials have "unofficially condoned" it.   

 

So with this continuing, there has been a significant increase in teaming up together to move forward

Danny, I follow all your posts, not only your bump drafting posts.

 

Wisconsin county police officer patroling state highway 57 near Plymouth Wisconsin after stopping Danny for driving 85 mph. Sir, why are you driving 85 mph on a highway with a 55 mph speed limit? Officer, the SCCA Spec Miata racers overwhelmingly indicated they wanted to drive the Texas state highway 130 speed limit of 85 mph on Wisconsin highway 57. Danny received the special (back in the day) Wisconsin highway 57 treatment from Jail.

 

I have no issues with team racing or drafting.

 

I do have issues with one group of SCCA racers (some drivers in Spec Miata) wanting to chamge a very basic rule (to pleasure themselves) that most likely has been around for a very long time for very good reasons. The rule would be 6.11.1.A. IMHJ, it is not fair or sportsmanship to require every driver to pair up to bump draft to have potential to qualify or race as fast as those that pair up and bump draft. This bump drafting will lead to bump drafting in the turns at which point someone will have a bad accident and then driver love will be shown so that someones partner doesn't get his you know what slapped. YES, bump drafting can be identified and eliminated for Spec Miata by the same process that the Miata cup cars use. No working video, none of the cars involved get finish positions/points for qualifying or the race.

 

Guys, this is open discussion.

 

 

EDIT, after reading Dave Wheelers post.

Mr. Wheeler, your previous post is below bar. Within this post I was going to use one of your team as an example of on/of track illegal track antics, but didn't because it was below the bar.  

[Bruce Wilson]

Requiring video...  Wouldn't that be like "one group of SCCA racers (some drivers in Spec Miata) wanting to chamge a very basic rule"?

[Jamz14]

I am not talking about refusing the stewards right to inspect. I am talking about being forced to comply with a competitors inspection of my car. And this has nothing to do with something to hide and cheating. It has to do with my car being available for competitors going through. There are plenty of things that are personal car prep craft and race craft that have nothing to do with cheating. If labeled a cheater......so be it. It would be disproved right away because I am sure that if I was being labeled a cheater, someone would do what was necessary to have it stripped down and inspected properly by the stewards. It would not be a surprise that some would still label a cheater someone that passed inspection.

 

Can a competitor be forced to open his car to other competitors for inspection?

[davew]

The point I made at the VIR post tech meeting, was that we have a book full of rules. The organizers choose which rules to enforce at that particular point in time. Often the rule enforced is weight of the car. Sometimes it is sizes of stickers. Other times it is nomex socks or SCCA patches. Sometimes it is valve relief cuts or compression ratio.

 

Do we want our overworked, understaffed volunteers worrying about sticker dimensions at every race? Or do we want valves inspected at every regional race? Or is there a proper time and place for everything?

 

The topic of discussion is if consentual nose to tail contact (often referred to as bump drafting) should be enforced by the event organizers without prompting from the involved individuals. i.e. protest paperwork being filed.

 

By reading this thread with a small amount of participants, I conclude that those currently involved in the bump drafting are in favor of a "no harm, no fowl" attitude. While those not involved in the bump drafting feel that any contact should be considered a violation of the rules and result in penalties.

 

To me, this boils down to a simple question. Is any avoidable contact to be penailized in the same way.

 

Driver A punts driver B into the weeds causing severe damage. Same force of contact, nose to tail, just under slightly different conditions probably warrents consideration by officials. Does the same contact without damage warrent the same consideration and penalties? What about the same contact with no change of position or damage?

 

Where do we draw the line? At VIR the masses asked to be allowed to have nose to tail contact, that did not effect either car in a negative way. The officials listened and agreed to enforce other rules at future events. If all contact is to be treated the same, watch out. If we want our officials to use their judgement, we have to agree to let them use their judgement.

 

No rules need to be changed, we only need to agree to which rules we want enforced. And how vigoresly we want them inforced.

 

Dave

[Rob Burgoon]

Ya know what I think club racing needs? A low cost spec class. (That ain’t SM anymore)
 

I’m thinking something like a closed-wheel version of SRF/bigger Legends car/smaller, cheaper Panoz GT.

 

Front engine/rear drive, steel tube frame, sealed inline four, sealed trans and diff, maybe a live axel, spec fiberglass/plastic body that is modular-easy to replace panels, steel wheels, one tire for SCCA/NASA. Keep it simple and over-engineered for durability (I'm amazed at some of the hits I seen SRFs take with relative minor damage). Price point around $20,000.

 

PS: I'd like to go on record as stating bump-drafting holds no appeal to me.

 

 

Thunder roadster is what you're describing. $15K new I think?  Dunno about reliable though.

[LarryKing]

Thunder roadster is what you're describing. $15K new I think? Dunno about reliable though.

 

Closed-wheeled [and closed cockpit]. More of a small modern coupe design.

[Johnny D]

What's wrong with the deisgn???

J~

 

[MPR22]

I am not talking about refusing the stewards right to inspect. I am talking about being forced to comply with a competitors inspection of my car. And this has nothing to do with something to hide and cheating. It has to do with my car being available for competitors going through. There are plenty of things that are personal car prep craft and race craft that have nothing to do with cheating. If labeled a cheater......so be it. It would be disproved right away because I am sure that if I was being labeled a cheater, someone would do what was necessary to have it stripped down and inspected properly by the stewards. It would not be a surprise that some would still label a cheater someone that passed inspection.

 

Can a competitor be forced to open his car to other competitors for inspection?

It is common at our NASA events.  Chief of Tech impounds top (whatever) maybe even all.  Pop open hoods and everyone gets to walk and look. 

 

 

 

OH BY THE WAY< THIS IS WAY OFF THE TOPIC OF THE THREAD< moderators please pull this back to Danny's topic.  If anyone wants to start a Run-offs inspection thread, I welcome it.  If anyone wants to start the 3259th Parity thread, I don't welcome it but I do respect your right to bitch about it, again.

[LarryKing]

What's wrong with the deisgn???

 

Would require additional FAA licensing - cost prohibitive.

 

Oh snap - I'm way off topic - sure hope the web police didn't see that.

[Danny Steyn]

Danny, I follow all your posts, not only your bump drafting posts.

 

Wisconsin county police officer patroling state highway 57 near Plymouth Wisconsin after stopping Danny for driving 85 mph. Sir, why are you driving 85 mph on a highway with a 55 mph speed limit? Officer, the SCCA Spec Miata racers overwhelmingly indicated they wanted to drive the Texas state highway 130 speed limit of 85 mph on Wisconsin highway 57. Danny received the special (back in the day) Wisconsin highway 57 treatment from Jail.

 

I have no issues with team racing or drafting.

 

I do have issues with one group of SCCA racers (some drivers in Spec Miata) wanting to chamge a very basic rule (to pleasure themselves) that most likely has been around for a very long time for very good reasons. The rule would be 6.11.1.A. IMHJ, it is not fair or sportsmanship to require every driver to pair up to bump draft to have potential to qualify or race as fast as those that pair up and bump draft. This bump drafting will lead to bump drafting in the turns at which point someone will have a bad accident and then driver love will be shown so that someones partner doesn't get his you know what slapped. YES, bump drafting can be identified and eliminated for Spec Miata by the same process that the Miata cup cars use. No working video, none of the cars involved get finish positions/points for qualifying or the race.

 

Guys, this is open discussion.

 

 

EDIT, after reading Dave Wheelers post.

Mr. Wheeler, your previous post is below bar. Within this post I was going to use one of your team as an example of on/of track illegal track antics, but didn't because it was below the bar.  

 

David, IMHO you are mistaken. If the Supreme court judge tells you that its OK for you to bump draft, and then someone protests it, it is IMHO irrelevant what is written in the statutes. There is an established precedent.

 

As Dave Wheeler alludes to above, and Skip Brock wrote about so eloquently in his response to the previous thread I started on http://mazdaracers.c...ing-discussion/, (see post #13) we are talking not only about "prosecutorial discretion", but now also about established precedence. 

 

When I started the VIR Bump Drafting thread, I had an premonition of where this would lead to, the perfect storm of dedicated pusher cars and dedicated puller cars working in perfect synchronicity.