189 replies to this topic

[DrDomm]

Some good points being raised, but actually surprised by the lack of debate. Maybe this is because it mainly affects the pointy end of the field.

 

But my personal opinion is, that if allowed to continue the way it is evolving, it could potentially affect the WHOLE class, and potentially the FUTURE growth of the class. Something that we ALL should consider.

 

With the Daytona Runoffs in our future, a race that I am really looking forward to, I would expect a whole new level of team racing being developed specifically for that race

 

I think at the back of the field, we see a lot of random drafting.  It's tough to be picky when you're just trying to keep up.

 

I use the motto, "If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with".

 

It would be depressing to finish 40th instead of 37th if a 3-car team went whizzing by, though.

[MPR22]

I think at the back of the field, we see a lot of random drafting.  It's tough to be picky when you're just trying to keep up.

 

I use the motto, "If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with".

 

It would be depressing to finish 40th instead of 37th if a 3-car team went whizzing by, though.

 

 

No worries. 

 

A team skilled enough to stay together will not be battling for 37th place.  

 

No disrespect intended. It is just extremely difficult to coordinate the actions of 3 drivers at one time, especially in a race situation.  

[MPR22]

If two drivers are working together with an obviously faster than normal pusher and they get away with it because the pusher car backs off to fly under the radar(no tech), then it is up to us to protest. We can't protest the lead cars time, but we can still protest the contact. If the protest of contact leads to investigation of the pusher car, it will get DQ'd as should the car being pushed if they are under the same tent or maybe not. It's hard to prove but if all of us are watching for it, it should lessen the possibility of someone getting away with it. Someone will only do it if they think they can. 

Not sure you can protest contact and then have the car torn down.  I believe all protests of the car itself must be pre-race or we would just throw paper at any car that looked too fast with the he didn't give me racing room protest route. 

[wheel]

A protest of contact would not result in any kind of a teardown.  Of course, if a car pushed another during Q, you could file a mechanical protest against the pusher before the race, but it would have no effect on the pushed driver, other than it would show him for what he is.  That is, if the pusher was a non-compliant car.

[Mike Collins]

If two drivers are working together with an obviously faster than normal pusher and they get away with it because the pusher car backs off to fly under the radar(no tech), then it is up to us to protest. We can't protest the lead cars time, but we can still protest the contact. If the protest of contact leads to investigation of the pusher car, it will get DQ'd as should the car being pushed if they are under the same tent or maybe not. It's hard to prove but if all of us are watching for it, it should lessen the possibility of someone getting away with it. Someone will only do it if they think they can. 

 

I would encourage MOST of you to read the rules and understand their application.  You must make a mechanical protest within a specific period of time prior to the race.  Most I know who want to dance on the dark side don't change the car until after this window has closed.  You can protest after the race but you would need to PROVE before the protest was accepted that a violation occurred, by that time the car has probably been returned to a state in which it would pass or was never in impound.  Same with the contact, if the car "pushing" doesn't give up video and you don't have video of the contact and corners did not call in contact because the car being pushed never became unsettled then you don't have much to stand on.

[Mike Collins]

Racing is inherently not a fair sport, in fact it's a "motor"-sport.  Talented people using a machines to compete are always going to look for a mechanical advantage.  I love the competitor who is creative enough to capitalize on an advantage they figured out within the rules.  There is nothing better than the SMAC having to write a rule on Monday because someone was smarter than us on Sunday.  There is no rule in the GCR that says that I cannot be smarter than you.

[DrDomm]

No worries. 

 

A team skilled enough to stay together will not be battling for 37th place.  

 

No disrespect intended. It is just extremely difficult to coordinate the actions of 3 drivers at one time, especially in a race situation.  

 

I wasn't offended before the edit.  That was really my point...just confirming what Danny was saying about the issue being mostly limited to the front of the grid.

 

But, I bet there will be some "temporary teammates" throughout the Runoffs field.  Staying together will be difficult, though.

[Jim Drago]

Not sure you can protest contact and then have the car torn down.  I believe all protests of the car itself must be pre-race or we would just throw paper at any car that looked too fast with the he didn't give me racing room protest route.

within 90 minutes of last qualifying, not sure why I can pull that number so quickly  

[Jim Drago]

Some good points being raised, but actually surprised by the lack of debate. Maybe this is because it mainly affects the pointy end of the field.

I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that many of the guys just see this as one one step closer to the complete transformation of what SM used to be, at least what we remember compared to where it is now. You can see a lot of this sentiment in some that have been around awhile, like Ocho and some others. Many of these guys are just tired and don't care enough to complain anymore. It is just one more thing in the long list that has changed as the class evolved. With each one of these "things" we lose one or two guys. The class has turned almost completely over from the people that were here 5-7 years ago when I started. Not sure if that is the natural progression or a result of the direct the class has gone, maybe both.

I know SM used to be looked as a fun , inexpensive way to go racing. Anyone with any real knowledge of the class knows it is NOT inexpensive if you plan on being competitive, probably never was. But there are way more fully prepped cars than ever before. It seems everyone has a fast car these days. You can be far more competitive in many of classes for substantially less money. We have lost that part of our appeal. Most of the fun was had in the paddock and off the track, lots of SM bbq's etc. It seems as the class has become more and more competitive, the fun and camaraderie has slowly leaked out of the class as well and the groups have become far more segmented. We used to be just the SM guys, now more and more I see different clumps, compounds and teams keeping more to themselves, us included. What we offer now is the mos competitive form of road racing that can be had for a "low cost" But low cost is not longer 10-15k. I don't think this is good, don't think it is bad, but it is certainly different than what it was "back in the day"

[Danny Steyn]

I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that many of the guys just see this as one one step closer to the complete transformation of what SM used to be, at least what we remember compared to where it is now. You can see a lot of this sentiment in some that have been around awhile, like Ocho and some others. Many of these guys are just tired and don't care enough to complain anymore. It is just one more thing in the long list that has changed as the class evolved. With each one of these "things" we lose one or two guys. The class has turned almost completely over from the people that were here 5-7 years ago when I started. Not sure if that is the natural progression or a result of the direct the class has gone, maybe both.

I know SM used to be looked as a fun , inexpensive way to go racing. Anyone with any real knowledge of the class knows it is NOT inexpensive if you plan on being competitive, probably never was. But there are way more fully prepped cars than ever before. It seems everyone has a fast car these days. You can be far more competitive in many of classes for substantially less money. We have lost that part of our appeal. Most of the fun was had in the paddock and off the track, lots of SM bbq's etc. It seems as the class has become more and more competitive, the fun and camaraderie has slowly leaked out of the class as well and the groups have become far more segmented. We used to be just the SM guys, now more and more I see different clumps, compounds and teams keeping more to themselves, us included. What we offer now is the mos competitive form of road racing that can be had for a "low cost" But low cost is not longer 10-15k. I don't think this is good, don't think it is bad, but it is certainly different than what it was "back in the day"

 

 

I think this is pretty valid, and I think it is unavoidable. The class is maturing. Every product goes though its natural life cycle. At some point it becomes time to relaunch a newer version of the product to keep it interesting. 

 

The two classes that attract the most competitors are SM and SRF. Both offer drivers the ability to mix it up with MANY other drivers on any given day. Most of us want to race, and not circulate around a track in a vacuum. Challenging another driver for the same piece of the track is what makes it fun for us.

 

SM still offers this in boatloads, but the cost of competing at the front has continued to rise and will continue to do so UNLESS there are major changes implemented. Ultimately the cost of competing will push existing drivers away and will cease to attract new drivers to the class. There is also the distinct possibility that some other low cost class will evolve that surpasses SM and SRF in providing low cost proximity racing that we all are looking for.

 

Striving to implement and maintain a ruleset that contains the costs and promotes close racing has to be the overriding mission for the longevity of the class.

[Bruce Wilson]

Danny, how would you regulate team racing?

 

I'm thinking about how long stewards have been trying just to deal with bump drafting, but have yet to see anyone get penalized.  And I don't think it's all about enforcement either.  Over the years we've learned how to avoid pushing beneath the starting stand, near corner stations and stewards standing along the wall.  We've had mustard packets taped to both ends of our cars and we still have figured out ways to avoid penalties.

[davew]

I don't know if I can make my point clearly in this post without a lot of thought/rewrites and time. But here goes ........

 

When I built my first SM you could count the number of cars on your hands. Yes, less than 10 cars where racing when I built the first 3 cen-div cars in 2001. A lot has changed. At first we threw in a cage, seat and belts. Bolted on the SM kit and went racing. Competition was close and we had a lot of fun. My first 2 customers supplied the donor cars and paid me under $5000 for the build. We had no data, cheap/heavy wheels, 4/32 Toyos and a crate motor was the thing to have. Heck, we raced topless!!!!! Today we have pro motors, pro transmissions, pro this and pro that. My latest built is going well over $40,000. I wish this was not the case, but we have evolved, found loopholes and gone up in price.

 

Can you still have fun at a lower price, OF COURSE YOU CAN. Probably more fun with less stress. But that will not win the big races. And we spend most of Jim's bandwidth talking about the big races.

 

But, the title of this thread is about team racing. As with any competitive endeaver, the competitors will always look for the advantage. Both fair and unfair. Legal and non-compliant. I don't like team drafting. We do it, but I still don't like it. In my world, the best car/driver should win. But in the current, real world it takes a teammate to push you to the front. At least at big tracks like Road America.

 

But, the team aspect is more than just push drafting. It is sharing information. Having the ability to try different things and to learn from each other. Installing the new widget may make you faster than last week. But did the conditions change to make everybody faster. This is one aspect of teammates that is often overlooked. Parts development, chassis development is all hurried along when you have multiple drivers working together.

 

I do not claim to be smarter or have all the answers. Well maybe most of the answers !!!!! What I do have is quantity of information. Last weekend at Road America I ran over 30 races. 2 classes, 2 days and 12 cars. How long does it take the single car guy to gain that much info?

 

Voytek won at Road America last week, being pushed by Tom Brown and Danny Bender. He also won at Gingerman 2 weeks earlier. Pushed by no one to a 10 second victory.  But the team aspect still came into play by knowing set-ups and chassis development.

 

Being part of a team does not have to be overtly expensive. Tires cost the same. As do brake pads and motor oil. What you pay for is labor and knowledge. That labor has a quantitative value. I charge X dollars for X service. But the knowledge is priceless. How many race weekends are wasted trying some new trick. I waste one (usually on my car) and pass that knowledge on to the rest of the team. That is the real value of "Team Racing".

 

I know I am biased. But racing as part of a team has always proven to be faster than an individual. Whether it was Mark Donahue driving for Roger Penske. Or, 5 car NASCAR teams. The advantages are overwelmingly on the side of multy car/driver/brain teams. ANd probably always will.

 

That is All

Dave 

[Jim Drago]

Striving to implement and maintain a ruleset that contains the costs and promotes close racing has to be the overriding mission for the longevity of the class.

Danny
I agree with this statement. But don't you agree the ruleset now is accomplishes that? certainly better than anytime in the past. What I am finding is the better the rules , THE more expensive the class gets. Other than a tire that lasts longer for more operable sessions ( which is being discussed already BTW) where else do you think are lacking in achieving this goal through rules?
( this is not me defending the SMAC or CRB) I agree 100% with your statement, curious what avenues you and others think should be pursued? Probably a good topic for another thread? Any opinions?
Jim

[Jim Drago]

I don't know if I can make my point clearly in this post without a lot of thought/rewrites and time. But here goes ........
 
When I built my first SM you could count the number of cars on your hands. Yes, less than 10 cars where racing when I built the first 3 cen-div cars in 2001. A lot has changed. At first we threw in a cage, seat and belts. Bolted on the SM kit and went racing. Competition was close and we had a lot of fun. My first 2 customers supplied the donor cars and paid me under $5000 for the build. We had no data, cheap/heavy wheels, 4/32 Toyos and a crate motor was the thing to have. Heck, we raced topless!!!!! Today we have pro motors, pro transmissions, pro this and pro that. My latest built is going well over $40,000. I wish this was not the case, but we have evolved, found loopholes and gone up in price.
 
Can you still have fun at a lower price, OF COURSE YOU CAN. Probably more fun with less stress. But that will not win the big races. And we spend most of Jim's bandwidth talking about the big races.
 
But, the title of this thread is about team racing. As with any competitive endeaver, the competitors will always look for the advantage. Both fair and unfair. Legal and non-compliant. I don't like team drafting. We do it, but I still don't like it. In my world, the best car/driver should win. But in the current, real world it takes a teammate to push you to the front. At least at big tracks like Road America.
 
But, the team aspect is more than just push drafting. It is sharing information. Having the ability to try different things and to learn from each other. Installing the new widget may make you faster than last week. But did the conditions change to make everybody faster. This is one aspect of teammates that is often overlooked. Parts development, chassis development is all hurried along when you have multiple drivers working together.
 
I do not claim to be smarter or have all the answers. Well maybe most of the answers !!!!! What I do have is quantity of information. Last weekend at Road America I ran over 30 races. 2 classes, 2 days and 12 cars. How long does it take the single car guy to gain that much info?
 
Voytek won at Road America last week, being pushed by Tom Brown and Danny Bender. He also won at Gingerman 2 weeks earlier. Pushed by no one to a 10 second victory.  But the team aspect still came into play by knowing set-ups and chassis development.
 
Being part of a team does not have to be overtly expensive. Tires cost the same. As do brake pads and motor oil. What you pay for is labor and knowledge. That labor has a quantitative value. I charge X dollars for X service. But the knowledge is priceless. How many race weekends are wasted trying some new trick. I waste one (usually on my car) and pass that knowledge on to the rest of the team. That is the real value of "Team Racing".
 
I know I am biased. But racing as part of a team has always proven to be faster than an individual. Whether it was Mark Donahue driving for Roger Penske. Or, 5 car NASCAR teams. The advantages are overwelmingly on the side of multy car/driver/brain teams. ANd probably always will.
 
That is All
Dave

Excellent post Dave!

[MPR22]

Danny
I agree with this statement. But don't you agree the ruleset now is accomplishes that? certainly better than anytime in the past. What I am finding is the better the rules , THE more expensive the class gets. Other than a tire that lasts longer for more operable sessions ( which is being discussed already BTW) where else do you think are lacking in achieving this goal through rules?( this is not me defending the SMAC or CRB) I agree 100% with your statement, curious what avenues you and others think should be pursued? Probably a good topic for another thread? Any opinions?Jim

Gray is expensive.

[Danny Steyn]

I don't know if I can make my point clearly in this post without a lot of thought/rewrites and time. But here goes ........

 

When I built my first SM you could count the number of cars on your hands. Yes, less than 10 cars where racing when I built the first 3 cen-div cars in 2001. A lot has changed. At first we threw in a cage, seat and belts. Bolted on the SM kit and went racing. Competition was close and we had a lot of fun. My first 2 customers supplied the donor cars and paid me under $5000 for the build. We had no data, cheap/heavy wheels, 4/32 Toyos and a crate motor was the thing to have. Heck, we raced topless!!!!! Today we have pro motors, pro transmissions, pro this and pro that. My latest built is going well over $40,000. I wish this was not the case, but we have evolved, found loopholes and gone up in price.

 

Can you still have fun at a lower price, OF COURSE YOU CAN. Probably more fun with less stress. But that will not win the big races. And we spend most of Jim's bandwidth talking about the big races.

 

But, the title of this thread is about team racing. As with any competitive endeaver, the competitors will always look for the advantage. Both fair and unfair. Legal and non-compliant. I don't like team drafting. We do it, but I still don't like it. In my world, the best car/driver should win. But in the current, real world it takes a teammate to push you to the front. At least at big tracks like Road America.

 

But, the team aspect is more than just push drafting. It is sharing information. Having the ability to try different things and to learn from each other. Installing the new widget may make you faster than last week. But did the conditions change to make everybody faster. This is one aspect of teammates that is often overlooked. Parts development, chassis development is all hurried along when you have multiple drivers working together.

 

I do not claim to be smarter or have all the answers. Well maybe most of the answers !!!!! What I do have is quantity of information. Last weekend at Road America I ran over 30 races. 2 classes, 2 days and 12 cars. How long does it take the single car guy to gain that much info?

 

Voytek won at Road America last week, being pushed by Tom Brown and Danny Bender. He also won at Gingerman 2 weeks earlier. Pushed by no one to a 10 second victory.  But the team aspect still came into play by knowing set-ups and chassis development.

 

Being part of a team does not have to be overtly expensive. Tires cost the same. As do brake pads and motor oil. What you pay for is labor and knowledge. That labor has a quantitative value. I charge X dollars for X service. But the knowledge is priceless. How many race weekends are wasted trying some new trick. I waste one (usually on my car) and pass that knowledge on to the rest of the team. That is the real value of "Team Racing".

 

I know I am biased. But racing as part of a team has always proven to be faster than an individual. Whether it was Mark Donahue driving for Roger Penske. Or, 5 car NASCAR teams. The advantages are overwelmingly on the side of multy car/driver/brain teams. ANd probably always will.

 

That is All

Dave 

 

 

Dave - I actually think the aspect of "team racing" that you describe above actually reduces the costs that one driver would expend to acquire the same knowledge that you are acquiring from your team. The amount of knowledge that Tom has imparted to me through his years of lessons learned has been invaluable. Of course what I have learned in my own pursuits has been applied to the OPM drivers as well. 

 

But this is not really the thrust of the "team racing" that I alluded to in the beginning of the thread. What I am driving at is the fact that two cars glued together go so much faster than one car on its own. As I said at the onset, I love the bump drafting aspect of our class, it is possibly one of the aspects that I even find most appealing, but I can see where this is leading, and it has the potential of driving up the costs.

[Danny Steyn]

Danny
I agree with this statement. But don't you agree the ruleset now is accomplishes that? certainly better than anytime in the past. What I am finding is the better the rules , THE more expensive the class gets. Other than a tire that lasts longer for more operable sessions ( which is being discussed already BTW) where else do you think are lacking in achieving this goal through rules?
( this is not me defending the SMAC or CRB) I agree 100% with your statement, curious what avenues you and others think should be pursued? Probably a good topic for another thread? Any opinions?
Jim

 

Jim - I think the specs have been tightened up considerably, and yes you are right, tighter specs mean that the differences are harder to come by and cost more to get in terms of searching for advantages (and that's what racing is about). I personally think SMAC has done a pretty decent job of closing many of the loopholes. I do think we should offer some advantages to both the 1.6 and 94-97 cars as I personally believe that they need to be encouraged to stay in the class. This view might not be popular with SMAC, but I do see their car counts declining. This might be intentional (Mazda driven) but I am not privy to the insider conversations. 

[David L]

Jim I believe the pro motor's are what will hurt the class in the long run. Hubs, grease, setup and knowledge will always be an advantage to the guys that put in the time. But going out on track and being pounded by a pro motor is just no fun. That is the reason I left the class in favor of SSM I just got plain tired of being beat by a motor. Am I winning races in SSM, no but I believe my car is every bit capable winning with the right setup, prep and driving. I would like to just ask 1 question to any of the top driver's reading. How long do your motor's last before they need to be refreshed or rebuilt?

 

There needs to be a sealed motor program in SM for the class to grow in the future I believe. 

[Jim Drago]

Gray is expensive.

Actually Gray is relatively inexpensive. Compliant/legal is what is very expensive, especially within a spec class. Your gains at this point are basically stacking tolerances. That gets VERY expensive!

[Jim Drago]

Jim I believe the pro motor's are what will hurt the class in the long run. Hubs, grease, setup and knowledge will always be an advantage to the guys that put in the time. But going out on track and being pounded by a pro motor is just no fun. That is the reason I left the class in favor of SSM I just got plain tired of being beat by a motor. Am I winning races in SSM, no but I believe my car is every bit capable winning with the right setup, prep and driving. I would like to just ask 1 question to any of the top driver's reading. How long do your motor's last before they need to be refreshed or rebuilt?
 
There needs to be a sealed motor program in SM for the class to grow in the future I believe.

I am running my engine from last year in this years Runoffs.
Sandlins motor is the same for three full seasons with a $2500 refresh in there somewhere
Stearns motor is on its 4th season, it came directly out of Roger Burdettes car and bolted into Eriks.
Craig has same engine as last year as well, refreshed after Runoffs tear down