535 replies to this topic

[jguthrie]

Frank,

with that.040 I might be able to push you.

[Jim Drago]

With the Run-Offs going to Daytona the 01 really does not need to be penalized, the track will do that. If you add weight the plate needs to change also. Other than MRLS where has the car done well? The compression issue seems to be fixed the cars will seem more normal.
 
Jims 1.6 ideas look good but the 1.6 group will complain about having to spend money. We have gone thru this before. The 1.6 needs something but hard to say what. Remember the KK car is not gone and will come back if we go too far.

VVT cars looked good at Daytona (surprisingly good) 35 lbs will not effect that. Having an 03 and an 00, I think 35 lbs is the number. But none of us us know within 10-25 lbs.

KK car is coming back regardless. So far no 1.6 guy complaining about costs which surprises me.

[jguthrie]

Tom

I would spend the money . A lot cheaper than scrapping it and building a NB.

Its important to keep the 1.6 competitive for guys coming into the class if you want

to keep the entry #s from falling any further .

[Alberto]

VVT cars looked good at Daytona (surprisingly good) 35 lbs will not effect that. Having an 03 and an 00, I think 35 lbs is the number. But none of us us know within 10-25 lbs.

KK car is coming back regardless. So far no 1.6 guy complaining about costs which surprises me.

 

What is a KK car?

 

This 1.6 regional only guy has no clue what the costs would be for an overbore and pistons so I'll keep my mouth shut on the topic for a change but it is a logical solution to gain torque in a 1.6.

[James York]

VVT cars looked good at Daytona (surprisingly good) 35 lbs will not effect that. Having an 03 and an 00, I think 35 lbs is the number. But none of us us know within 10-25 lbs.

 

 

Were those "whistlegate" cars perhaps...?

 

We have seen your dyno plots.  Unless you think the 01+ has some sort of magic aero to compensate, all else being the same, it falls behind 99 toward the top.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Were those "whistlegate" cars perhaps...?

 

 

 

No car was found non compliant at Whistlegate... 

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Agree the 99 has the 01 in the top end department, generally +2 on HP. so if we add weight to off set the TQ how do you adjuster for the top end issue, I would agree with a one mm bigger hole depending on the weight.

 

 

Guthrie you don't need any help, you got Kyle to be your pusher.

 

 

Frank, now to be fair, you know I would push you rather then John!  yet the only time my car can get close enough to your bumper is in the turns, and I dont think you want the push then...

[James York]

No car was found non compliant at Whistlegate... 

 

True.  Sort of like the "no witch" hunt "we aren't going to look at any blending after the plunge cut" run what you brung at the ARRC.  

 

I wonder if someone protested a car for such blending if the stewards would refuse to hear the protest....  Hmmmmm.

[FTodaro]

I will say this, if they do add wt to the 01, and no plate change, you will not see any of them compete at Daytona, why would they. I think they should let the 01 ride for another year before they make a change. that way you eliminate the effects of whistlegate, and as Sticky fingers Fowler said, its going to be a non issue at Daytona.

 

Look, we are all basing our opinions on our experiences at different track that we all go to. I spend a fair about of time At Mid O racing my good friends Murdick and Guthrie, two vary good 1.6 drivers. our lap times and generally vary close and the win goes to who makes the fewest mistakes. 

 

The point is what makes sense at Atlanta and Daytona will not make sense at VIR  Watkins or Mid O

 

Bluntly, i think the cars are as equal  as ever depending on where you go, but any changes are going to have different results depending on where you race.

 

You will never get this perfect, and you will never make everyone happy. So Lets keep shooting for the impossible.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Murdock said it best if you and your 01 weren't holding him up at mid Ohio he could go faster...

[LarryKing]

 

What is a KK car?

 

In my Homer Simpson voice, "Mmmmm donuts."

[Tom OPM]

So far the 01 has shown no reason to penalize it. Yes some were fast at Daytona but the lap record was set by a 99 and all in the lead draft were pretty darn equal, no one broke away 99 and 01. So what is the reasoning to make a competition adjustment at this point? The 1.6 needs a bone to keep them happy. What will work vs what they will spend vs not to much for some of the really developed ones still around.

[mdavis]

Agreed on the '01.  So because a bunch of good drivers decided to build some now they need a penalty?

[Jaime Florence]

Here ya go, how about this...

IT rules for 1.6
Basically .040 over, add .5 compression, port matching 1 in in on intake and head. ( probably do away with port matching portion)

94/97 cars get 47 mm plate/ no other changes

99/00 no change

01/05 +35 lbs


This will speed up the 1.6, give it some more grunt and no effect the rest of the cars. Nor will it slow anyone else down. If it becomes a problem, we can add weight to it or reduce weight on all the rest.

 

That sounds about perfect!  It will cost a little bit for us 1.6 owners, but can be deferred until the next motor freshening for those on a tight budget.  Those of us who want to try to be competative can find a way to cough it up.  It's an order of magnitude easier than trying to do a new build.

 

The existing 1.6 cars are so darn cheap these days it's a great "entry level" car to get new drivers out on track.  I've bought three "abused children" 1.6's (two that had been sitting for years) and rehabbed them.  No way I could have put together three cars building new.  I really believe keeping them mix helps feed the class, as long as they are not regional only, dead-end (only can go so far with them) cars.  It may not be obvious in all regions but I'm highly confident having a way in for less than $20k helps a bunch.

 

I know the port matching could get thrown out, but that would be pretty cool.

[Jim Drago]

I have both cars, I really don't care what way the rules fall. Just my opinion. Just throwing out stuff here as I am bored bidding cars on line .

Those that were at Mid Ohio majors, do you think 35 lbs would have mattered? The compression on that car is/was always to the rule. I would take 35 lbs and smile.

[Danny Steyn]

I'm with Fowler on this. I personally have not been able to get my '02 car to the level of my '99 car.

 

Under 5,500 RPM my VVT car is slightly stronger, but in the usable RPM range from 5,500 to 6,900 which is used at most of our tracks, the 99 is the stronger car. 

 

Other VVT builders might see different numbers, but I also suspect that several VVT cars will slow down quite a bit when their compression is brought in line.

[FTodaro]

I have both cars, I really don't care what way the rules fall. Just my opinion. Just throwing out stuff here as I am bored bidding cars on line .

Those that were at Mid Ohio majors, do you think 35 lbs would have mattered? The compression on that car is/was always to the rule. I would take 35 lbs and smile.

Here Jim I know you want to get things balanced out. 35 lbs

 

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

Here ya go, how about this...IT rules for 1.6Basically .040 over, add .5 compression, port matching 1 in in on intake and head. ( probably do away with port matching portion)94/97 cars get 47 mm plate/ no other changes99/00 no change01/05 +35 lbsThis will speed up the 1.6, give it some more grunt and no effect the rest of the cars. Nor will it slow anyone else down. If it becomes a problem, we can add weight to it or reduce weight on all the rest.

Jim,this sounds great !

I don't care if some of the 1.6 guys complain about spending money on there engines, they don't half to. But for guys like me I would be happy to spend money on my motor,it's way cheaper then building a new car. If this goes through you would see me back running Nationals ( majors) for sure.

[Adax]

I agree with Danny, if more weight is recommended for the '01, less plate would be needed to even things out on top end.

 

Disclosure : I race an '01

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

Heck Jim, I'll have my cylinder head in the mail tomorrow for you to do it.