79 replies to this topic

[new2SoCal]

That start was rubbish...   Should've black flagged the pole sitter for jumping the start.

How does a pole sitter jump a start?!?

[wheel]

The pole sitter has to maintain the speed of the pace car until the green comes out. 

[MPR22]

6.5.2. The Pace Lap A. One pace lap precedes all races, unless the Series Chief Steward or Chief Steward authorizes an additional unscored pace lap. B. The pace lap may begin at a brisk pace, but must be sufficiently slowed before the start line to allow orderly grouping of the field. The actual speed immediately prior to the start is dictated by the types of cars, size of the field, and course layout. However, the standard SCCA start is a rolling start and not a flying start. The same official should brief the front row drivers before each race, preferably the Starter, under the direction of the Series Chief Steward or Chief Steward. 1. If a pace car is used, it will be positioned at the head of the pack, with emergency lights flashing. Drivers may not pass the pace car until it turns off its emergency lights and pulls off the track, and the pole car will maintain the speed of the pace car before it pulled off track until the green flag. The front row drivers must be advised not to pass the pace car. 2. If a pace car is not used, the pole car will pace the field complying with directions from the Series Chief Steward or Chief Steward or his designee. The pole car will maintain a constant speed from the grouping until the green flag and shall not modify his speed approaching the flag stand.

[john mueller]

How does a pole sitter jump a start?!?

 

Please identify yourself Mr New2SoCal...  Forum trolls are no fun.

 

The pole sitter has to maintain the speed of the pace car until the green comes out. 

 

 

What Wheel said...  If I was on pole I'd want to too and until black flags are given it's going to keep happening.  More bias in CalClub???  Nawww, never happen.

[MPR22]

How does a pole sitter jump a start?!

Do you race? If so you should know this. 

[James York]

An unbiased view:

 

Passing car was penalized for GCR 6.11.1A: "Drivers are responsible to avoid physical contact between cars on the race track." The question then becomes who can avoid contact, if at all.

 

Passing car video 6:01, passing driver is 1 car width wide of lead black car and can be seen turning hard left to get back in line. Still photo shows passing car is not clear of car being passed. The bumper of the car being passed is about at the a-pillar of the passing car. 

 

The car being passed likely followed the black car deep into the corner under braking and has cars to his inside. Can't check up because he is already decelerating/turning, can't turn to the inside because of other cars. If he could, the chain reaction occurs anyways.

 

An unbiased response:

 

I am not positive as to what point you are making.  Are you implying that a car making an outside pass has to be totally clear of the car being passed before turning or otherwise can be run into?

 

Even from the videos and pics, I have a hard time to tell what happened in this event here being discussed.  But I do know if I am on the inside for a turn, and another SM is outside of me and AHEAD (so I can obviously see him/her easily), and they turn on an outside line and if I run into them or force them off, it's my fault.  Period.  I need to adjust, check up and give them room for around the outside.

[Jim Drago]

6.5.2. The Pace Lap A. One pace lap precedes all races, unless the Series Chief Steward or Chief Steward authorizes an additional unscored pace lap. B. The pace lap may begin at a brisk pace, but must be sufficiently slowed before the start line to allow orderly grouping of the field. The actual speed immediately prior to the start is dictated by the types of cars, size of the field, and course layout. However, the standard SCCA start is a rolling start and not a flying start. The same official should brief the front row drivers before each race, preferably the Starter, under the direction of the Series Chief Steward or Chief Steward. 1. If a pace car is used, it will be positioned at the head of the pack, with emergency lights flashing. Drivers may not pass the pace car until it turns off its emergency lights and pulls off the track, and the pole car will maintain the speed of the pace car before it pulled off track until the green flag. The front row drivers must be advised not to pass the pace car. 2. If a pace car is not used, the pole car will pace the field complying with directions from the Series Chief Steward or Chief Steward or his designee. The pole car will maintain a constant speed from the grouping until the green flag and shall not modify his speed approaching the flag stand.

 

 

And no pole sitter who wants to enter turn one in first uses this method I think when all the people behind the pole sitter follow this rule, the pole sitter will start to follow.   We have all hashed this out a hundred times.  The flagger has a responsibility to wave off the start if need be.  

[Tom Sager]

Don't know who is driving what car in the video posted today, but I can't see how the outside silver car is at fault in this.  The car to the inside either drifts or steers into that outside car.  Heckuva run through there by the camera car.  

[Ron Alan]

How does a pole sitter jump a start?!?

Besides what all else have said...watch the start again. Coming out of the last corner as the pace car pulls off, the pole sitter is on the gas. This leaves all still in the corner behind and even catches some in the top 3 rows off guard. Already in 4th gear when the green flag comes out!. Watch the video from the 21 car to the end...there is a shot of the start from the stands...no way should there be gaps like that!


With regards to your unbiased opinion...nice try! If anything...both cars should have been penalized! The gray car had tons of room to his left to move over before contact was made...in fact he should have been right next to the yellow car! But obviously he was having a hard time stopping and turning! I don't see the lead car after he is ahead turning hard left. I see him continueing his radius until hit!

[Bad Rusty]

An unbiased view:
 
Passing car was penalized for GCR 6.11.1A: "Drivers are responsible to avoid physical contact between cars on the race track." The question then becomes who can avoid contact, if at all.
 
Passing car video 6:01, passing driver is 1 car width wide of lead black car and can be seen turning hard left to get back in line. Still photo shows passing car is not clear of car being passed. The bumper of the car being passed is about at the a-pillar of the passing car. 
 
The car being passed likely followed the black car deep into the corner under braking and has cars to his inside. Can't check up because he is already decelerating/turning, can't turn to the inside because of other cars. If he could, the chain reaction occurs anyways.

It's like saying "to be honest with you" before speaking, it just convinces me you were/are lying. But way to show up out of no where with an opinion on something related to So cal! Hey, while you are at it, get the video from your car, sorry, Curtis gongs car and post it. That would end this for all( but Vegas odds are the San francisco 49 ers win the super bowl this weekend, 100:1, Curtis gong video being posted 1000000:1!

[new2SoCal]

Note to self:

You should've never tried to post you opinion even if you qualified it. Smart move, however, to remain anonymous because this forum is turning into a kangaroo court with flamethrowers.

[High Chair]

The pole sitter has to maintain the speed of the pace car until the green comes out. 

Anybody that has been the pole sitter knows that is a big mistake. It is common now for the leader to accelerate prior to the green in order not to have a pile up in turn 1 (or entering turn 1 fifth). If the flagger wants to wave it off that is their prerogative but that rarely happens.

[Ron Alan]

Note to self:
You should've never tried to post you opinion even if you qualified it. Smart move, however, to remain anonymous because this forum is turning into a kangaroo court with flamethrowers.

Turning into? You obviously haven't been here long...but most every kangaroo here has a name and shows up at the track to back up his yakking or get kicked in the nuts!

[LarryKing]

 

You should've never tried to post you opinion even if you qualified it. Smart move, however, to remain anonymous because this forum is turning into a kangaroo court with flamethrowers.         

 

For a new guy you catch on quick. Never disagree with the "cool kids" unless you have a thick skin.

[True North]

All appeal documents and paperwork was sent and received in time by our national office in Topeka.  I will re-post one more time just to let everyone know who took an interest in this thread what the Court of Appeals decision is.

[True North]

All appeal documents and paperwork was sent and received in time by our national office in Topeka.  I will re-post one more time just to let everyone know who took an interest in this thread what the Court of Appeals decision is.

 

Ok, thanks to all who had given their opinions and input in the forum and thank you to the COA for putting a lot of time into making this decision. 

The following is the Final Decision of the COA:

 

In his appeal, Mr. Busk offered a well-written and documented appeal utilizing selected and annotated still frames from two of the videos reviewed by the SOM and analysis of information from his data acquisition system. The COA conducted an extensive review of Mr. Busk's documentation, the complete body of evidence used by the SOM (four videos and six witness statements), and the SOM Chairman's confirmation that all the witness were interviewed.

The SOM conducted a hearing and properly considered the evidence in arriving at their ruling. Mr. Busk's evidence was well presented, but relied heavily on only a selective portion of the video evidence available to and used by the SOM. Based on it's review of Mr. Busk's analysis and arguments, the COA is unconvinced that his actions did not cause the first lap incident. Additionally, the penalties imposed were within the authority granted to the SOM by 2015 GCR 5.12.1.A.3.

 

Decision:  The Court of Appeals upholds the decision of the SOM. Mr. Busk's appeal is well-founded and his appeal fee, less the amount retained by SCCA, will be returned.

[Andrew Charbonneau]

you dont want my opinion lol passing on outside no draft and hand sawing lol

[Richard Witt]

Fortunately, "back in the day"  lol we didn't have at this vid stuff.  One time or another I've bumped or banged in everything I was in, is that good or bad, probably not, but it is what happens.  Be over-joyed to be "out-there"!!!! SCCA will get over it...so will you....lace up those shoes and get at it!!!!

[True North]

Yeah...I intend to for now! The last 6 months have been really tough and at 57 years young, the skills might be fading a bit. Just wanted to make sure I am still safe. One last thank you to all who commented and hopefully I can meet a lot of you in Daytona this year!

[Jim Creighton]

Just a point of information for all of you thinking about or filing an appeal. Generally speaking, the court of appeals will not reverse the original courts decision unless you have new evidence which was not available at the time of the original protest or the original court erred on a point of procedure or the penalty. Very rarely will they consider the original evidence and reverse the first court.

 

That said, there is no harm in filing an appeal but don't expect much unless you can submit new evidence.