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You Make The Call - Atlanta 7/2015

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Best Answer Todd Green , 08-05-2015 10:30 AM

Sorry to post a little late, just catching up on this thread.  Chris you know I respect you, but when you say side to side contact, I have a hard time understanding that point of view.  Sure ultimately it was side to side, but look at this still frame from the vid:

 

sm_ra_contact.png

 

Steve has significant steering input, the door is already closing and you can clearly see Joe's car is still completely behind Steve's car (though moving fast to the left).  Now the monkey in the wrench is the speed differential in cars.  This is just bad juju every time.  Anyway, in my book side-to-side means that you have overlap before the leading car has turned in (or minimally the trailing car has presented itself to let you know the dive bomb is coming.)  Clearly that is not the case here.   The trailing car had to have seen that Steve wasn't leaving room for whatever reason.  Perhaps the trailing car didn't have time to react, but IMO on a test day he should never have taken the chance in the first place and backed off long before it got to that point.  I don't know Steve beyond his posts here, but I'd wager that if he knew that Joe was going to stuff it in there, he'd have left room.  Very few people are going to intentionally risk injury and damage to prove a point on a testing day.  So the question becomes is it reasonable for Steve to have kept watching his mirrors after he'd already turned in?  I'd say no.  Sure there are circumstances with out of class cars and massive closing rates where you'd better be ready to leave the door open, but for in class if I've checked my mirrors before turning in and there is no car to the inside of me I'm turning down and looking where I'm going.  If you can run a corner while looking in your mirror and not lose time (or drive off track), you're much better at this than I am.

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#21
Czarny

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The over taking car shouldn't have tried to pass on the inside, the outside is the better option and sets you up for the Esses, let alone that there wasn't enough gap.  Sorry to see this happen Steve, let alone on Test Day.

 

Everyone needs to be more docile and conscious of their surroundings on Test Day in particular.  I didn't have any major contact for over 2 years and got ran into (an SM turned right into me as I was passing with plenty of room) going down the straight between T5 & T6, on TEST DAY!  The explanation was, oah I was on my out lap.  What?!?  Thankfully there wasn't any mechanical damage, just some sheet metal.  Mind you I've been hit by this same driver at the ARRC 2 years ago coming up through the field behind Danny S. and then while recovering the loss of control, I badly injured my wrist that put me out for over 4 months.  Spacial awareness & courtesy are key here.

 

Todd & I definitely had a good race, always a blast to run with such a great driver and great guy!

 

See you at the next event!

 



#22
MPR22

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The Crowell brothers are very aggressive drivers, not sure why he pressed the issue as it was clearly a CF with all the cars bottle necking into turn 3.  It appears you did look at your mirror and may have seen him coming but didn't think he was going to attempt the pass.  

 

Bottom line, contact like that on test day is ridiculous.  I have wadded up a car on test day and there was no reason for it then either, luckily i was the only person involved. 

 

Sorry to see the damage.  


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#23
Craig Berry

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Very agreesive move for qualifying or last lap of the race. I don't think that kind of aggression belongs on test day. I have personally spun my car when getting in too hot at a test session to avoid a car going slower than anticipated.....even brushed a tire wall this year.
Sorry to see that kind of damage.... Hate spending $ on that stuff, especially when it did not mean anything
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#24
FTodaro

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I think several people are looking at this from a racing perspective, even then, i look to the over taking car to be sure it can be done safely. I am not sure at that speed mowing over the inside curb you could hold your line. I would not want to be either car at that moment.

 

However, from a practice day perspective, Its a no brainier, test day people are scrubbing tires bedding brakes and learning where the track goes. the first time i went through there, T4 is blind you have no clue where the turn in point is, my point, the first few sessions your off line and missing the blind entry points.

 

That is understood and foreseeable on test day so you have to give the other guy on track a little margin for error, there was no margin given.

 

i would not be happy either. I have been punished twice at R Atlanta neither time was my fault.


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#25
Keith Andrews

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I agree. Except for bump drafting.
So, who are you saying is at fault?

 

I'm not sure fault is that important.  I know the contact was not intentional.  I know there were numerous other people making contact with other drivers on test day.  It just shouldn't be as common as it frequently is on test day.

 

I can hardly wait to go to Daytona next month with all those folks determined to win the Runoffs at that test day :rolleyes:


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#26
DamonB06

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I am not sure how much this adds but here is the incident from my view a few cars back. If you pause it, it looks like the passing car is alongside in 3.

 

https://youtu.be/ybPPs-429ho



#27
Tom Scheifler

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I'm not sure fault is that important.  I know the contact was not intentional.

 

I believe fault is very important, intentional or not.  Someone who does not understand they are at fault will probably repeat the behavior again and again and again.  


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#28
john mueller

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Test day ?!?!?!?  RIDICULOUS!!!!


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#29
Eurotechnik

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There is no video from the overtaking car so the court of public opinion shall continue to run it's course based on the evidence presented.  I can, however, offer my personal recollection of the events as they occurred:

 

Exiting T1 I was closing on two cars at a considerable rate.  As the (red and blue) cars entered T3, they were door to door with the blue car overtaking the red car.  At entry, both cars remained door to door leaving the red car off line to the left and the blue car off line to the right as they were allowing room for one another through the turn.  I completed the pass on the red car at the exit of T3.  The blue car remained well off line to the right leading me to believe he was aware of my presence and leaving room for me to overtake. By the apex of T4 I was door to door with the blue car and he came back down track resulting in the unfortunate contact.  The contact was within a half a wheel, his favor, of being door to door.

 

By no means would I have attempted the pass had I not interpreted the blue car's off line track position as an indication that he was aware of my presence and intention of overtaking.  By no means would I have attempted a pass if there was not ample room to complete a safe overtaking.  I am well aware that the outside of T4 is the conventional overtaking point and in this instance the blue car's position on track in between T3 and T4 solidified my evaluation of the situation and my decision to move on him to the inside.

 

I came to this series to find the most competitive amateur racing in the country and intend on competing in this group as long as I possibly can.  I have quickly found not only an immense level of competition and talent but an even greater amount of camaraderie in this community.  I am not here to tear up anyone's equipment especially on a test day.  It makes me absolutely sick to think of all the lost efforts and resources in such a brief moment. 

 

Steve, as I now know, I attempted to introduce myself and discuss the incident at the track but you were understandably angry and ultimately refused to do so.  Please allow me extend an apology for my misinterpretation of your positioning on the track and it's contribution to the incident as I now know you had never been to RA.  I am absolutely sickened by the end result of the incident as I greatly appreciate the lengths we all go to in order to get out and share our passion.  As I eluded to earlier, I have intentions of running in this class as long as it's feasible so I'm not here to make enemies.  In the future I certainly will be even more cognizant of people who may be learning a new track.  Let me reaffirm that I would never intentionally make a move that I thought would result in contact, much less the destruction of a competitor's car.

 

Czarny, for clarification purposes, I misread your comment the first time in which it sounded as I was the vehicle you were involved with which we both know I was not.


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#30
Johnny D

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https://www.youtube....h?v=TcxpbhM0DaA

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#31
Johnny D

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A couple thoughts.
The overtaking car has the responsibility overtaking, why... the overtaken car often gets the short end of the stick, like what happened.
 
Car being overtaken...
This works in Multi-Class racing, if your a back markers, mechanical failures, etc
You must have situational awareness.
Listen, look, drive your line, be predictable. All this I hope you learned in school.
Look (check mirrors) before you turn in because... there may be somebody filling the spot.
If you're giving up your position, point, so there's no confusion.

Not placing blame, a lot was going on, just pointing out some things.
Better luck next time.
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#32
Ron Alan

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There is no video from the overtaking car so the court of public opinion shall continue to run it's course based on the evidence presented.  I can, however, offer my personal recollection of the events as they occurred:
 
Exiting T1 I was closing on two cars at a considerable rate.  As the (red and blue) cars entered T3, they were door to door with the blue car overtaking the red car.  At entry, both cars remained door to door leaving the red car off line to the left and the blue car off line to the right as they were allowing room for one another through the turn.  I completed the pass on the red car at the exit of T3.  The blue car remained well off line to the right leading me to believe he was aware of my presence and leaving room for me to overtake. By the apex of T4 I was door to door with the blue car and he came back down track resulting in the unfortunate contact.  The contact was within a half a wheel, his favor, of being door to door.
 
By no means would I have attempted the pass had I not interpreted the blue car's off line track position as an indication that he was aware of my presence and intention of overtaking.  By no means would I have attempted a pass if there was not ample room to complete a safe overtaking.  I am well aware that the outside of T4 is the conventional overtaking point and in this instance the blue car's position on track in between T3 and T4 solidified my evaluation of the situation and my decision to move on him to the inside.
 
I came to this series to find the most competitive amateur racing in the country and intend on competing in this group as long as I possibly can.  I have quickly found not only an immense level of competition and talent but an even greater amount of camaraderie in this community.  I am not here to tear up anyone's equipment especially on a test day.  It makes me absolutely sick to think of all the lost efforts and resources in such a brief moment. 
 
Steve, as I now know, I attempted to introduce myself and discuss the incident at the track but you were understandably angry and ultimately refused to do so.  Please allow me extend an apology for my misinterpretation of your positioning on the track and it's contribution to the incident as I now know you had never been to RA.  I am absolutely sickened by the end result of the incident as I greatly appreciate the lengths we all go to in order to get out and share our passion.  As I eluded to earlier, I have intentions of running in this class as long as it's feasible so I'm not here to make enemies.  In the future I certainly will be even more cognizant of people who may be learning a new track.  Let me reaffirm that I would never intentionally make a move that I thought would result in contact, much less the destruction of a competitor's car.
 
Czarny, for clarification purposes, I misread your comment the first time in which it sounded as I was the vehicle you were involved with which we both know I was not.


Know idea your name but this seems to be a well written and sincere apology...and that goes along way in most people's book. I also saw in the video exactly what you are explaining...and as one of those who was first to comment I gave my opinion as such. Race vs test day and this is looked at differently.

Shit happens. We all learn from our own and others choices/mistakes. Thanks for coming here and speaking up.

Really sorry for Steve the result was more than a donut :(

Ron

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#33
Rob Burgoon

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Passing car 100% at fault on a test day.

 

Passing car also very likely to be found at fault in a race, either org, especially without video.


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#34
Johnny D

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In our region, NASA NoCal, CA, they keep track of "get togethers" and you get to have a talk after a few.
You get a one race suspension for passing under yellow.
Pissed of a few last race.
Mandatory video and the spotter race app on your phone.
You see how everyone gets their act together pretty quickly.
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#35
Steve Scheifler

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Ron, and others with similar comments, I think you imply things that are not true. This was not a case of a back marker without situational awareness. In fact, if anything it was the passer who lacked it. In a case like this I should NOT have to defend my pace, it isn't relevant, but if that's going to cloud the facts then I will. Despite being just my second session ever at the track and in the process of scrubbing in stickers, which is supposed to be a progressive build up to a lap or two at 10/10ths, I had already gotten down to (a very ragged) 1:47.01, which though not front pack competitive in a race was within a couple seconds of what the fast guys were doing on that hot humid weekend, despite me just doing test laps in a lowly 1.6. Point being, I was quite aware of the correct line in T4 but you may have noticed that I had just slowed to ensure that I got around the very slow red car without us surprising each other and having an incident. Stupid me thought that was appropriate, you know, being a test day and all and him probably not looking for the overall leaders to come blasting up behind him fighting for position. In any case, with the steep hill I had to downshift early to get around him and then was way off line with no speed. In the video look at my mirror, at that moment I was the passer but below normal speed and there was nobody even close behind, so no, I didn't make a big effort to force the car back on the perfect line for T4. I started to accelerate to get back up to speed and begin my hot laps if I could find enough open track. Those first two sessions were FULL of cars going slowly and it was more like a slalom with moving pylons than a race track. That coming from someone new to the track, and all the more reason that the other driver should have been cautious as well. I had SRFs driving like they had no mirrors at all, but I somehow managed to miss all of them.

So look at the video again and look at where his car is as I make the pass, and then watch my hands as I go into T4. I move them once. Look where he is at that moment, then see that my hands don't move and my trajectory does not change. Keep in mind that I can't just stare at my mirrors on the possibility that someone might be planning a stupid move, on a test day. I'm looking ahead at the busiest part of a track I'm learning and where cars may be parked over the next hill or around the next bend, looking for flags, and yes, as the video shows, checking my mirrors. And keep in mind that in the twisties, things are harder to find in the mirror and are moving across it faster so judging relative position and closing speed is difficult with a glance. It's easy to not consider all that from an armchair watching video, but very much on MY mind as I made passes on the red car and countless others that morning.

Now let's look at the passer. It appears to me that I was increasing the gap on him down the front straight, and then as I slowed for the red car he had a clear and unobstructed view of what was going on in front of him. Anyone with situational awareness would realize, or at least suspect, that I was slow only because of the other car and would be getting back up to speed. But instead of lifting for just an instant to be sure nobody got a nasty surprise, he dove very late, to the inside where there absolutely was not enough room. He does that while still clearly in my rear view mirror after I've already committed to a line and changed my focus back to my own trajectory and what's in front of me. So comments about leaving racing room are completely baffling. I repeat, the video is perfectly clear. When I turn the wheel he is in the middle of my rear view mirror, actually to the right as I start (perhaps his thinking about going right is at least true, though the first he's mentioned it). Surely there can be no expectation that the lead car will leave a car-width inside when you are directly behind at turn-in? He is the one with a clear view of everything, and in control of what happens next. That's WHY the passer carries more of the burden, and in this case he wasn't even set up yet as the passer as I enter the corner. If that had been a race, even a regional, or qualifying, I would have tried to keep an eye on the left mirror anyway (and may have instinctively here, I really don't know), but it wouldn't have mattered because at the speed he was going and the way he dove inside late there wasn't time to blink let alone avoid him.

If I had gotten closer to the left curb initially perhaps this wouldn't have happened, I have no argument with that statement, but it's about as relevant as saying that if I had stayed home it wouldn't have happened. I got stuffed into the wall for no good reason whatsoever.

As for the video from behind, thanks for posting, but I don't see what you see and my video is pretty clear about where each car was when the pass was attempted.
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#36
Steve Scheifler

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Eurotechnik/Joe, nice story. I can't blame Ron and probably others for buying it. Too bad it took over four days to prepare and doesn't track too well with the facts.

I think I'll start near the end because you make it sound as if you came by afterwards to talk and I was too angry and refused. Let's set the record straight on that right now because the truth, and the way you are twisting it, are part of the pattern and a window into who's really behind the pretty post-pressure damage control speech.

After getting the car back to our paddock I had to check in with medical and fill out CYA forms confirming I was OK and absolving them of any further responsibility for me. Part of that was checking my blood pressure, which I'm proud to say was 122 over 60 something, which was actually LOW for me. Having already asked me what had happened the guy exclaimed how impressive it was for someone who should be hopping mad. Indeed, I was perfectly calm and matter of fact about it until we met. After medical I went back to the trailer and took a closer look at the car, then pulled the video and looked at that a few dozen times, looked at the car some more, discussed options with Tom, looked at the video again, waited... I thought perhaps I'd get a courtesy visit from the guy who had trashed my weekend and my car, but nope. You kind of paint a different picture, implying that you approached me, which though not exactly lying was just as dishonest and only confirms first impressions.

So, not knowing who you were or anything other than I'm looking for a Miata with white & yellow paint, a white cage and a banner at the top of the windshield, I take a long tour of the paddock on a not exactly cool day after being knocked around in my car. When I do find you I'm perfectly calm, waiting for your side of the story. What I get is a "yea it's rough, shit happens, it's happened to me" (not a direct quote) attitude. I didn't hear even a hint of regret so I asked you exactly what you were thinking, and you said (direct quote) "I had a run on you guys", like that explained it all. I guess in a way, it did. My reaction was one of considerable dismay, asking what that meant and saying it's a test day, to which you rephrased the same answer. Now, yes, some frustration was probably starting to show as I expressed my thoughts on that justification. Then you told me that there was room inside so you took it, to which I replied, no doubt with a bit more passion, that quite obviously there was NOT room, as my bent car could attest. Nothing at the time about thinking I was staying wide to leave you room, or that you would have gone outside, just that you had a run and saw a gap. I expressed disbelief and went back and forth a bit more, and then you played the ever popular "I was fully alongside of you when you jerked the wheel into me" card. That's when I knew I was wasting my time, and that you were accepting zero responsibility and would say anything to push the blame to me.

THEN you tried to diffuse the situation by smiling and introducing yourself with a shake of hands. Yea, I backed away. A shake implies a certain level of respect, friendship and/or trust. So let's recap what I knew about you so far:

You seemed to have displayed very poor judgement to attempt a very high risk move, *on a test day* - Tentative Strike One

Despite being the one who made the move, and the one with a car still intact, you failed to come looking for me to discuss it, see how I was, whatever; I had to come find you - Strike Two

After I found you, you adamantly accepted ZERO fault of ANY kind and your initial justification for the move was simply that you "had a run" on us - Confirm Strike One

When pressed further you insisted there was room, and then as a last resort claimed that I jerked left into you after you were alongside - Strike Friggin Three

Why would I want to make nice and shake your hand??? So yea, by that point there was clearly no point in further discussions, and sure, I was a little angry. But "I attempted to introduce myself and discuss the incident at the track but you were understandably angry and ultimately refused to do so." isn't exactly honest, is it?

Obviously nothing you could have done after the fact would fix my car, my weekend, my budget or the rest of my season, but if you had come to find me, watched the video, and accepted that it was too late and too tight to dive inside, especially under the circumstances, you might at least have fooled me into thinking that you are a sincere and reasonable guy. Fortunately you were at least honest in that respect, and I want anyone else reading your flowery post to know it's pure PR damage control, not who you were that day, and apparently continue to be here by changing the story again to look like a nice reasonable guy who had the misfortune to underestimate the obvious incompetence of another driver, and how you're sorry for that, at least. Which really, is still all the blame you've accepted.
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#37
Johnny D

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You have to see the bottom line Steve.
He's sorry but look at your car. He may have gotten a DQ if it were a race, but that's nothing. I get it.

We had a lady at Sonoma thru the esse's flip and total her car. Luckily the guy stepped up and helped replace it.

But at the end of the day it's better to give and race another day than defend your position.
Sure, sometimes "shit happens" but you get better at it not happening after a while.

I think Euro understands what's happened, live and learn. We're all learning.

Especially in a test session.
J~
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#38
Steve Scheifler

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Johnny, I know you mean well, but I don't think the bottom line is that's he's sorry at all, at least for what really happened, he's just trying to duck and weave after the fact by chasing fabrication down with deception.

And I do not understand how any of this pertains to me?
"But at the end of the day it's better to give and race another day than defend your position.
Sure, sometimes "shit happens" but you get better at it not happening after a while."
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#39
Johnny D

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Well.. I can lead a horse to water...
If you think you're going to be reimbursed or get justice here, well.. I wouldn't hold your breathe..

I can only hope you take my advice and have a new prospective once you fixed you car next time out.
All the best.

J~
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#40
Steve Scheifler

Steve Scheifler

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So now I'm dense as well as at fault? When did I say anything about reimbursement or any kind of justice? And what water/wisdom am I passing up? Not angry with you, just don't understsnd and wonder if you are not saying what you really think. If I'm known for anything, it's being blunt enough to avoid ambiguity about what I think in cases where it matters. If I expected anything, I'd spell it out. My goal here was to confirm my view of what happened, or find a convincing argument to the contrary. Surely I have the option to challenge things people inject that I don't think are relevant or are contrary to the evidence, and once the other side spun his tale I can hardly be expected to not respond.
Instigator - Made a topic or post that inspired other Broken record - You are starting to sound like a broken record.




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