147 replies to this topic

[Steve Scheifler]

Me too.

[Jim Drago]

This seems to have grown a life of its own.. 

 

I agree there are countless good people in Sm and unfortunately some that are not so good. I am not having dinner, beer or a hand shake with any that I put in the latter category, life is just too short! Nor would I suggest it to others.   No idea if the driver in question does or does not fit that category.  We don't need to like each other, just need to get along. If driver A puts driver B in the DB category, that's not my business. Only Steve and Joe know what happened in the post crash conversation, so not sure we are qualified to comment? As background,  I can say I have known Steve for awhile and he is a man of his word and certainly not some one looking for money for the repair of his crashed car. He one of the most ethical guys I have met in racing. If he tells me something, I believe it with out question. He has earned that trust with me.  

 

If I were behind Steve and "I" saw that slight move right..  "I" would interpret that as Steve seeing me in the mirror and moving off line  as he was checked up for the red car. BUT, the difference would be I would absolutely be covering the brake just in case and not taking it at full speed leaving myself some time and space should it be needed. IT WAS TEST DAY AFTER ALL!  

 

I can say with some certainty, that had Steve had a conversation that went a little more like what most described above.  Any type of "I'm sorry" he would have accepted and apology and moved on rather quickly. Surprised to see all this banter, so from past experience, I have to think it has some merit.

Jim 

[Bench Racer]

As background,  I can say I have known Steve for awhile and he is a man of his word and certainly not some one looking for money for the repair of his crashed car.

 

He one of the most ethical guys I have met in racing.

 

If he tells me something, I believe it with out question.

 

He has earned that trust with me.  

 

Jim 

I also have known Steve and Tom Scheifler a long time. Raced with Steve a month ago.

[guest driver]

Anytime there's contact, gentlemen go look for the other car/driver, your fault or not, the dude went into the wall, he deserves a personal conversation ... 

reminds me of 10 years ago at the Mid Ohio Pro SM race, I was punted off on lap 1 while running inside the top 10, got all tore up, drove it back to the pits and retired the car with extensive damage.

I was so pissed I immediately left the track to drive back to the airport. Got a call on the drive to Columbus, apparently the guy who punted me off came over to find me and got my cell phone number from my crew, he then apologized profusely for the incident. That was a class move, like I said, "gentlemen" go find the other driver if there's contact. To this day, nothing but respect for that guy.

 

Hey Jim Drago, I just wanted to let you know ...  it was partly my fault, I kinda brake checked you there to get you off my ass and a better exit, dumb ass move on my part

[Jim Drago]

Anytime there's contact, gentlemen go look for the other car/driver, your fault or not, the dude went into the wall, he deserves a personal conversation ... 

reminds me of 10 years ago at the Mid Ohio Pro SM race, I was punted off on lap 1 while running inside the top 10, got all tore up, drove it back to the pits and retired the car with extensive damage.

I was so pissed I immediately left the track to drive back to the airport. Got a call on the drive to Columbus, apparently the guy who punted me off came over to find me and got my cell phone number from my crew, he then apologized profusely for the incident. That was a class move, like I said, "gentlemen" go find the other driver if there's contact. To this day, nothing but respect for that guy.

 

Hey Jim Drago, I just wanted to let you know ...  it was partly my fault, I kinda brake checked you there to get you off my ass and a better exit, dumb ass move on my part

long term friendship came of it.. so not all bad  

[MPR22]

Anytime there's contact, gentlemen go look for the other car/driver, your fault or not, the dude went into the wall, he deserves a personal conversation ... 
reminds me of 10 years ago at the Mid Ohio Pro SM race, I was punted off on lap 1 while running inside the top 10, got all tore up, drove it back to the pits and retired the car with extensive damage.
I was so pissed I immediately left the track to drive back to the airport. Got a call on the drive to Columbus, apparently the guy who punted me off came over to find me and got my cell phone number from my crew, he then apologized profusely for the incident. That was a class move, like I said, "gentlemen" go find the other driver if there's contact. To this day, nothing but respect for that guy.
 
Hey Jim Drago, I just wanted to let you know ...  it was partly my fault, I kinda brake checked you there to get you off my ass and a better exit, dumb ass move on my part

Carlos, he has been using that move ever since you taught it to him.

[Jim Drago]

Carlos, he has been using that move ever since you taught it to him.

You have to learn a little and take a little from everyone you meet along the way to be successful

[FTodaro]

A timely piece from Winding road about assessing fault on metal to metal contact. 

 

http://www.windingro...ame-in-a-crash/

[Todd Green]

NASA you can force a competitor two wheels in the grass once you have the line by moving in front of that car.

That is not the intent of the rule, it says, "The main purpose of the “¾ car width” rule is not to allow one driver to “squeeze” the other driver. The main purpose and intent is to alert the mind of the driver that is contemplating a pass that he/she may be “forced” to go two (2) wheels off-course to avoid a collision."

I really wish they didn't write the rule as they did and just said you had to leave a car width, because everyone just remembers the first part of the rule and not the clarification.

[Todd Green]

Steve, sorry your car was damaged, but glad you were not hurt.  It's always hard to make a call based on one vid, but my thoughts are:

 

1) It was already a messed up situation due to you passing a much slower car and you slowing considerably to make a considerate pass

2) The only reason you are offline is because you were passing said car.  It seems fairly clear from the vid that you are committed to the corner and you can see that you have significant steering input towards the apex while the yellow/white car is still behind you.

3) Given this was a T&T day, you'd think the trailing white/yellow car would have just backed out of it and passed you after the esses.  (Caveat I don't know that corner and there are certainly corners where you cannot just jam on the brakes without spinning etc., but the trailing car had plenty of time to see what was developing in front of him and should have reacted accordingly.  It isn't like this was the last lap of a race and he was lapping you with 2nd place right on his bumper.)

 

Under the NASA system I'd give 6 points to the white/yellow car and 1 point to you given the evidence presented.  Why 1 point?  The idea is that if you are constantly having contact, even if you are the victim then something must be going on.  You get 10 points per season before (mandatory) action is taken, so a one-off 1 point won't matter, but they will add up and gives a paper trail/history.  (This also answers the other poster's question of why fault should be assessed IMO.)

[Steve Scheifler]

Interesting Todd, thanks. I understand your reasoning because if a driver is just too slow or inattentive then they may be involved in an inordinate number of incidents without ever being solidly at fault. On the other hand, if I believed that I truly was not at any fault, in this case because it was a test day and I know that under race conditions I would have slowed less (because I can reasonably expect the driver of the red car to be more attentive), then I would vigorously appeal even the one point. Why? Because it sets a precedence and if I'm unlucky enough to be the victim again then there is no way to un-ring that first bell, making the next decision all the more likely to go against me. And on principle, though I could maybe swallow that to get it settled and move on if that were truly the end of it.

[Todd Green]

I hear you and am not sure I totally agree with the rules, but that is what they are.  I was in a race a few years ago where a guy didn't brake in a corner, hit me from behind (his front bumper to my rear) and sent me off track (with me losing two positions) and I got one point in that situation.  Of course I felt I was not at at fault at all and was pretty unhappy about it.  But I had no other contact that season, so the slate was clean for the next year (*).  It really does suck when you are a pure victim, but in the big picture it doesn't matter since the odds of you getting enough points to get called in to talk to the Race Director are close to zero.  Where it does come into play is say for another driver in our region that had the habit of spinning near the front of the field (he has a pretty fast car for the run group, but of course was slow in the corners) on the opening lap.  Of course this causes all sorts of mayhem with the field.  He did it at our last race and 5 cars were damaged, with at least 2 written off.  Now had he been given a point every time he spun in front of the field, plus 6 for the gran carambolage, he easily could be done for the season.  If you don't keep the paper trail and say he spun in another region it would just get chalked up to "stuff happens, that's racing".   With the notes in his record you could see that it wasn't an isolated incident.  As long as the notes say something like (0% at fault, mandatory 1 pt) in your records, I've more or less come to endorse it.  (Though it is still salt in the wound at the time it happens.)

 

There is way too much carnage in our class IMO.  It luckily rarely gets people hurt, but can.  For sure it burns people out, scares new people away, and thins the fields when cars get wadded up and racers cannot afford to fix them or build another.  I've personally had it with the same racers who are constantly causing incidents and never seem to learn.  They need to be politely told to find a different hobby.  NASA has a systematic way of doing that (assuming it is applied, which isn't always the case.)

 

* I'd like to see a rolling 12 month cycle where points drop off.  You shouldn't feel like you have "fouls to give" just because it is January (or whatever month your racing season begins in.)

[CruzanTom]

Go have a few beers with him, you'll soon understand, make amends, laugh with him, make a friend, move on.
Been there, done that.
J~

 

I had a similar incident at my first trip to VIR a few of years back when a driver tried unsuccessfully to pass me in Hog Pen. On Test Day. During the very first session. On the out lap. I spun and ended up in the tire wall with two broken ribs and lots of damage to a rental car. The other driver was a former National Champion and very experienced driver. I was a rookie. I had never been in that situation so my "situational awareness" did not contemplate a pass at that point. I was pissed.

 

A friend reviewed my video and confirmed the pass was ill-advised. At the same time, he pointed out things that I could have seen in my mirrors that might have allowed me to avoid the incident. "Even if it wasn't your fault, you still have to pay to fix the car. Learn how to avoid the repair bills."

 

The same friend knew the other driver and spoke to him. the other driver initially said that he thought he had room and he thought I saw him. My friend said video confirmed he was in error.

 

At the end of Test Day, the other driver stopped by later with two cases of beer - one for me and one for the crew who had to fix my car. We aired our points of view to each other (I had cooled down by then but I was still pissed). I felt better that he acknowledged his error. We had a beer and talked racing, race cars and race drivers. We talked about families and work.

 

The other driver reviewed my other videos and shared his considerable experience with me. He offered to coach me throughout the weekend. Afterwards he stopped by frequently between sessions, not just to see me but others in my paddock, too. He won one race and came in second in the other. I finished P28/32 in the first and P19/31 in the second, the improvement mainly due to the other driver's coaching.

 

Lessons learned: 1. I got screwed on Test Day. 2. It cost me money. 3. Broken ribs hurt a long time. 4. I made a friend. 5. I became a better racer.

[Tom Scheifler]

Under the NASA system I'd give 6 points to the white/yellow car and 1 point to you given the evidence presented. Why 1 point? The idea is that if you are constantly having contact, even if you are the victim then something must be going on. You get 10 points per season before (mandatory) action is taken, so a one-off 1 point won't matter, but they will add up and gives a paper trail/history. (This also answers the other poster's question of why fault should be assessed IMO.)

Seems very sensible and well thought out.
SCCA should look at using the same system.

[Danny Steyn]

Despite few of us being there, and going on video and heresay, as well as written posts, I thought why the hell not, let me also chime in. I "know" both drivers. By that I mean I barely know them. Not overly friendly with either, not enemies with either. Cordial competitors that I have shared the track with. Both have raced me fair.

 

WITH REGARD TO THE INCIDENT

As far as I am concerned, there is absolutely NO way that there was room to pass on the inside of T4 unless the car ahead is way off line, and Steve with his shallow entry through T3 was briefly off line and quickly coming back to the preferred line when he was hit by (IMO) an aggressive and unnecessary move.  Sure another video would possibly reveal some other factors at work that we cannot discern from Steve's multiple cameras, but in their absence, the fault lies 100% with the passing driver

 

WITH REGARD TO THE APPROACH AFTER THE SESSION

There is just absolutely NO reason to not immediately go to the other driver and find out if they are OK and either apologize, if you are at fault, or ask to see their video if you think they possibly caused it. But to be the passing driver who punts the car ahead of you off the track and then NOT GO AND CHECK ON THEM, that is just SERIOUSLY INEXCUSABLE BEHAVIOR. 

 

ENUFF SAID. FLAME SUIT ON

[Johnny D]

WITH REGARD TO THE APPROACH AFTER THE SESSION

He did, Steve didn't want to talk to him.
J~

Steve, as I now know, I attempted to introduce myself and discuss the incident at the track but you were understandably angry and ultimately refused to do so. Please allow me extend an apology for my misinterpretation of your positioning on the track and it's contribution to the incident as I now know you had never been to RA. I am absolutely sickened by the end result of the incident as I greatly appreciate the lengths we all go to in order to get out and share our passion. As I eluded to earlier, I have intentions of running in this class as long as it's feasible so I'm not here to make enemies. In the future I certainly will be even more cognizant of people who may be learning a new track. Let me reaffirm that I would never intentionally make a move that I thought would result in contact, much less the destruction of a competitor's car.

[LarryKing]

 

He did, Steve didn't want to talk to him.

 

Were you there Johnny? I've read two conflicting versions of whom approached whom. You're basing your assumption on one version.

 

Why is that?

[Steve Scheifler]

I'm sure he will be pleased to know that his carefully worded deception fooled at least ONE person.

[Tom Scheifler]

He did, Steve didn't want to talk to him.
J~

You are wrong Johnny. That's what Joe tried to make it seem with his fuzzy description.
Steve had to go find him to discuss the incident.

[Johnny D]

Fair enough.

Fine, He's an evil man, be bitter, hold a grudge, take him out next time out.

At least pee on his trailer.
J~