147 replies to this topic

[Rob Burgoon]

Yea, yea, this horse is pretty well dead, but hard to not include additional thoughts as they occur to me and be curious about the rationale behind opposing viewpoints. I think it matters, beyond trying to convince people that I'm right. Besides, I don't see a lot of more pressing topics vying for our attention at the moment.

 

You'll go crazy trying to get any sort of consensus from this forum.  Many of the folks just love to be contrarian.

 

Collect opinions, weight them, draw your conclusions, move on.

[Johnny D]

Many of the folks just love to be contrarian.

 

Yea, contrarian, that's it.

https://www.youtube....h?v=8hGvQtumNAY

[Cnj]

Yea, yea, this horse is pretty well dead, but hard to not include additional thoughts as they occur to me and be curious about the rationale behind opposing viewpoints. I think it matters, beyond trying to convince people that I'm right. Besides, I don't see a lot of more pressing topics vying for our attention at the moment.

Interesting topic Steve. Anyway the votes are in. 29 (now including me) people have cast their views.

16 think Joe was totally in the wrong
7 think Joe was mostly to blame, but you also had a portion of responsibility
5 don't define their position
1 appears to think Joe was in the right but sorry it happened (at least that's my read of Joes post)

As for me, I'm in the "Joe was mostly to blame, but you also had a portion of responsibility" group. I err to an 90/10 split.

If this forum was a democracy with any influence on apportioning blame, Joe would be sunk. Of course the crowd is fickle and a different video (from red car) might sway the vote.

My conclusion (with the evidence available) is that Joe went for a seemingly low percentage pass on a test day and it cost you dearly. This is an expensive and occasionally dangerous sport and we should hold each other to a high standard of track behavior, hence I find this discussion useful in my desire to be better and safer on the track. My take away is to not to be tempted to do the same move (expecting different results) - and hope I remember this in the heat of driving fast. On the other hand, if I was in your car on that day, I would wonder if I could have predicted Joe coming through and eased up my steering once I saw him disappear rapidly from my rear view mirror. He had to be somewhere....

Armchair critique is alway easier than the real thing, but I appreciate the learning opportunity from following these threads.

Cnj

[chris haldeman]

My take...
Joe was closing hard
Steve was off pace and off line
Joe decided too pass inside on the traditional race line for that corner (very common too have left 2 wheels on inside curb)
Steve didn't see him
Steve moved from off line towards the normal line
Joe had no where too go at that point
Cars touched side too side mostly
Steve crashed hard into outside wall
Joe continued on with a tire mark at most
Fault = inmo 50/50
Key evidence against Steve is he just didn't look inside before heading towards curbing
Key against joe is he assumed Steve would see him making a late pass in traffic on a test day.
Side too side contact should be the responsibility of both drivers. As I coach customers and myself I always say protect your car regardless of others actions. In the end and hindsight there was always a way too avoid these crashes if you made yourself aware of the possibilities and used the info available aka closing rates and mirrors

[Steve Scheifler]

Watch the video again Chris, it simply does not support much of what you are saying. It is very clear, to my eyes, that Joe was entirety BEHIND me and even slightly to the outside at the moment that I turned the wheel into the corner. You can see me looking at the mirrors confirming what's behind. Then you should see a single steering input by me at that time, BEFORE he dives inside, (some of the initial movement accross my mirror is me turning of course) and then my hands are almost perfectly still until impact, certainly NOT adding any input to the left. I saw him and I made ONE steering input while he was still BEHIND me, period. Your description just doesn't seem to square with that. He may have thought I planned to leave more room inside. Certainly had he been left/inside at the moment I had to turn the wheel I would have done that. But at that time he was center or right of center, not inside. He even says he would normally go outside there and was prepared to. So maybe he genuinely thought I was going to leave room inside and was simply wrong, and going too fast once committed. That might make him less outrageously thuggish on a test day, but I can't see how that adds up to 50% my fault. The mirror and steering wheel couldn't be more clear.

[chris haldeman]

Sadly regardless of what you say or think he was way beside you before impact occurred. Clearly to me atleast he thought you were staying outside and that is why he went inside. As that was happening you took inside away from him. I'm not saying he was right as clearly he was wrong. He made the inside choice you decided too move from mid track too inside and plain and simple didn't see him. The part that gets me blaming you 50% is the side too side contact. That is a lot of car for you too see even just a glimps in the mirror or out of the corner of your eye and there would have been no crash.
Was it a dick move on a test day? Sure it was and sadly your car was heavily damaged.
Was there anything you could have done? Yes there was. Awareness during test days is even more important as there are huge differences in the people around you. Too give you a corner specific explanation turn 4 at ra is a constant radius single input corner and your line thru it is always determined be the exit from 3. Typically at speed if a car is outside it can't get too the inside line as the speed and grip limits the ability too turn down. You were off pace some from passing the much slower car and joe didn't fully grasp that.

[chris haldeman]

Full disclosure... I'm blaming both and have never met either driver

[Steve Scheifler]

Wow, you are a tough grader! 50% for maybe two seconds, in the middle of a turn, for not seeing and avoiding someone who had been well behind me and even slightly outside at entry an instant before. You are right, he had to be somewhere, but mid-corner is a tough time to figure out where. If I had guessed inside but he had actually gone outside, it would be him in the wall. But I HELD MY LINE, and apparently that was worth absolutely nothing in your grading system. So be it, I'm just glad I didn't have you for a teacher in school! 😣

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Steve good thing you didnt put this vid up on facebook for spec miata racers discussion page... It would have over loaded FB  what with the other action at RA being discused.

 

nearly 7 pages of arm chair quarterbacking OMG 

 

[Steve Scheifler]

you are free to ignore it if you like, not like I'm detracting from more important discussions. And I really couldn't let the 50/50 call go unanswered when the stated rationale conflicted with the facts. If this were just a matter of sheet metal and paint I might have settled for five pages.

[chris haldeman]

Here is the fact you can't seem too understand. You and only you went from off line and off pace towards the racing line without looking. Crashes happen in a lot less time than 2 seconds. The passing car was all but completely beside you before impact. I can't even imagine how you didn't see, hear or "feel" his presence. Nobody is perfect everybody makes mistakes. If a person can't recognize the mistake they will do it over and over till they do. Moral is if off pace and off line look before and during the return towards race line. This stuff happens fast and often. Holding an unconventional line way off pace is not a good defense in my book. Passing car was on traditional line and expected you too see him.
50/50 is actually being kind. The more I watch it the more I am blaming you. Sorry if this is not what you wanted too hear. Put any percentage on it that makes you feel good. Just learn from it and always try too protect your own car. The only choice you control is yours.
You need too look at it and be able too say too your self and anybody else " I just didn't see him dive in there going 20 mph faster on a damn test day as I was turning down too curbing".

[Steve Scheifler]

I can accept everything you say as a point of view to which you are entitled, until you insist on repeating/misrepresenting the timing. When I turned the wheel he was entirely behind me. Fact. Stick to the facts and I can respect your point of view, but as with his insistence that I cut down after he was along side of me, stretching the facts just makes the resulting conclusions and your entire perspective suspect. What I know for absolute certain is that if the roles were reversed I would be blaming myself 100%.

How much would you like to wager on the ruling if I presented this to five different SCCA race officials experienced in judging such incidents? Just curious whether you think they would see it differently and therefore wrong in your opinion. (I have certainly disagreed with them at times, mostly cases not involving me).

[Rob Burgoon]

I can accept everything you say as a point of view to which you are entitled, until you insist on repeating/misrepresenting the timing. When I was turned the wheel he was entirely behind me. Fact. Stick to the facts and I can respect your point of view, but as with his insistence that I cut down after he was along side of me, stretching the facts just makes the resulting conclusions and your entire perspective suspect. What I know for absolute certain is that if the roles were reversed I would be blaming myself 100%.

How much would you like to wager on the ruling if I presented this to five different SCCA race officials experienced in judging such incidents? Just curious whether you thing they would see it differently and therefore wrong in your opinion. (I have certainly disagree with them at times, mostly cases not involving me).

 

Would you tell the officials that it was a test day?

[Steve Scheifler]

Sure, or a practice session (as if we still got those). But I'd be interested in rulings both as a test session and as a race. Although I would not change what I think of as "blame", I would consider it a less egregious error in a race. But this wouldn't have happened in a race because I would have gone by the red car much faster, because I would have the expectation that he was more aware of me coming up behind him.

[Ben Rooke]

I don't post much, but I would like to tag onto this thread with a very late, but slightly different, opinion.

I'm a low budget, low talent racer who came to racing late in life. The most precious commodity in my quest for beating the crap out of everyone on this site is track time. I don't get much of it so I like to use it all. I agree there are no trophies for test days, but I also believe that it is where races ARE won.

There may be 3-4 test sessions, but I'm looking a something different in each one. And my best set of tires is the ones that are just moderately crappy. The laps I meet several slower cars may be the only ones I have to test something critical. And I invariably meet those cars around a sector of the track I am working on.

I consider myself very aware, and I have never made contact with anyone on test day. BUT, I am aggressive as hell. I have passed cars with wheels in the grass and in low percentage areas. Sometimes I waited, but a lot of times I didn't.

I say this not to offer blame or exoneration to either party. Just the fact that I feel a test day is not JUST a test day. It's probably the most important day if you are interested in winning.

[James York]

I am not going into who is or not to blame... really no point, i think every view has been aired.

 

But the title of this post should be "This guy that hit me is an idiot" and anyone who sees otherwise is wrong and i don't need your opinions.

[Rob Burgoon]

Are test days fully staffed back east?  Sometimes we only have start finish and a single flag station manned out west for the test day.

[Tom Scheifler]

I am not going into who is or not to blame... really no point, i think every view has been aired.

But the title of this post should be "This guy that hit me is an idiot" and anyone who sees otherwise is wrong and i don't need your opinions.

Thanks for your input

It seems to me that Steve has welcomed all opinions including those that find him at fault but has vigorously defended the facts when he sees an incorrect statement. I don't interpret his followup questions and corrections as a STFU response but I see how someone who does not know him might misunderstand.

[chris haldeman]

Copied from the portable drivers hand book.
50/50 at best.

[Colin MacLean]

I haven't posted on here in ages and I'm not going to add my 0.02c but Steve, dude, YOUR HELMET.  It doesn't remotely fit you.  If you get in a head-on wreck you're going to seriously get hurt wearing your helmet like that.  It looks like your head is not inside the helmet at all and it's resting around your ears.  Get that sorted before you get hurt man!

 

OK, F it I will add my 0.02c  That was 100% on the passing car.  If someone is going to let you by on the inside of no-name (T4) they get WAY, WAY offline to make the pass happen and 90% of the time you're getting pointed by.  There's no questioning it, it's obvious.  When Steve tracked out from T3 he tracked out fully to the left and almost touched the kerbs.  He then turned left for T4 a tiny bit late making his line not completely tight against the kerbing.  But from initial turn-in his trajectory was always right back on the racing line.  In no way was that opening the door.  Without a clear point-by there's no way in holy hell I'm making that pass ESPECIALLY on a test day.  If someone pulled that move on me I'd be spitting fire.