147 replies to this topic

[Steve Scheifler]

And BTW, there was a long break for him, including lunch, before going out again. I gave him a long time, and when I found him he was not urgently working on problems so he could go back out.

Just to avoid a change in the story, that he had planned to find me but was too busy or I beat him to it.

[LarryKing]

Immoderate moderating

[Johnny D]

Ok, moving on.

J~

[Jim Drago]

Were you there Johnny? I've read two conflicting versions of whom approached whom. You're basing your assumption on one version.

 

Why is that?

Good questions

[Johnny D]

He did take the time to post here. Doesn't count for anything, huh ?

 

I'm done.

J~

[Tom Hampton]

He did take the time to post here. Doesn't count for anything, huh ?

 

I'm done.

J~

Once---no not that much.  So did Steve...more than once. 

 

Steve responded to his statement, point by point.  And when his version of events was challenged by Steve he has not responded.  If he feels THAT bad about it ("absolutely sick about it..."), why has he not taken the time to read and respond to Steve (publically or privately)? 

 

You did actually READ Steve's rebuttle, correct?  I really don't understand your steadfast, unwavering, unsubstantiated, unilateral support for Euro on the basis of a single uncorroborated post. 

[Johnny D]

I did 3 pages on Steve's side, I got bored and switched over.

 

J~

[FTodaro]

I did 3 pages on Steve's side, I got bored and switched over.

 

J~

you must be a republican running for president. Can you put Donald Trump in your avitar.

[Tom Hampton]

he did that already...last week.  The windblown version.

[Rob Burgoon]

Fair enough.Fine, He's an evil man, be bitter, hold a grudge, take him out next time out.At least pee on his trailer.J~

How many times do I gotta tell ya Johnny? The urine goes IN the trailer, not on it!

[Johnny D]

Sorry, typo.

J~

[wheel]

Anyone who gets in a car-to-car like this, on a test day or in qualifying, has only themselves to blame.  No fast Q lap was every recorded when a driver was dicing with someone else like this.  Nothing was ever learned, on a test day, by making a diving move on some other car.  If you get in a tight spot, when it doesn't count, back off and work on it the next lap.  Blame to both and move on.

wheel

[Steve Scheifler]

Wheel, interested to know details of the portion and nature of blame to each as you see it. I think there is a difference between "could have reduced risk by doing or not doing X", and doing something clearly "wrong". For example, I could have turned more sharply into T4 and he may have gone to my right, hopefully with a clean pass. But all circumstances considered (already off line having just passed a VERY slow car, test day, etc) is that really "blame"? Sincere question about your opinion.

And as this winds down I'd like to ask another question of the group. Let's say I was a rookie driver AND new to the track, so I'm 10 seconds off the pace (or just in a slower class) and not yet finding the correct line. Isn't what we preach that such a person should just "hold their line and the fast cars will find a safe way past"? Hold their line, whatever it is at that moment, not move over, or slow dramatically, or try to get back on the traditional line that they missed at turn-in. In short, maintain speed and trajectory, right? Why is this different? Watch the mirror compared to my hands on the wheel, isn't that exactly what i did even while he was behind me?

[Johnny D]

http://9thcivic.com/...hen_Colbert.gif

J~

[Erik Hardy]

For some dumb reason I'll bite on this thread, but only for 1 comment.

 

I can easily see both sides on who to put the blame on, probably bias it 60/40, with slightly less blame on Steve. When I first watched the video after Steve passed the slower car, it looks to me like he telegraphs that he is going to drive off line at corner entry for the next left hand corner. Because this is test day, its not unreasonable to assume steve is giving up the line to the faster car behind and hence the side by side action occurred... but whoops that wasn't the case, mistakes happen. Trailing car was the aggressor 60% blame.

 

Once the nearly door to door action happened, there wouldn't have been an issue if Steve would have realized(?) there was another car just inside of him and given him room, side x side would have occurred and all would be well. Steve may have held the same trajectory path; but giving more room was an option. 40% Blame. (Drivers school also suggested it is always your fault no matter what as there is always something you could have done better) 

 

However, some slight mistakes were made and shit happened. I don't see anything blatant by either party and I hope things can be resolved on a personal level. In the end its just sheetmetal, $, and some sweat to fix. I come from racing motorcycles, sheetmetal is much better than actually breaking your buddies bones!

 

Please don't get upset with someone who doesn't find the need to argue or defend there position on the internet; especially someone who clearly doesn't have a continuous presence on the site. This is already the 5th page of dissecting a moment that happened within a split second. If its not that cut an dry.... it was an whooops and time to move on.

 

...and I'm done.

[Steve Scheifler]

Thanks Erik, every perspective adds. And I might agree more with you if the distance vs time were different or the preceding section of track straighter. But when I see how far back he was as I approached the corner checking my mirrors, where he was in my mirror as I first turned the wheel, where I already was in the corner and the speed he was still going when he dove inside, it just doesn't add up. If it had been preceded by a straighter bit of track then judging his speed and intentions might have been easier (keep in mind that the camera mirror perspective is significantly different from the driver's, who has a few other tasks as well). And without it being conscious thought in the moment, when I'm having to get around one slow car after another in a busy TEST session and exercising what I consider reasonable caution to do so, there is an expectation that the faster "better" drivers are doing the same and require less of my focus anticipating sudden ill advised moves, in a TEST session.

I honestly believe that if this happened in a race it might be more understandable, but that the passing driver would still be found entirely at fault. And this was no race.

I've accepted blame or partial blame for incidents in the past. Multiple times I've pulled over and let a driver back by when I didn't think I deserved a position I took with a poorly executed move that required the other driver to go off track or spin, even when running well in a national. I once put a dent in a pretty BMW on a test day in a scenario very much like this, probably 2005, and I still feel bad about it. But for this one, if the outcome were different where I had just spun while his car got trashed, I'd feel really bad for him but my conscience would be clear.

[Jim Drago]

I did 3 pages on Steve's side, I got bored and switched over.

 

J~

Ok, that is funny

[MPR22]

[pat slattery]

Looks like the overtaking car started his pass from the grass.  Bone headed pass attempt for a practice day.  Last lap at the runoffs for first place, maybe a different story

[Steve Scheifler]

Yea, yea, this horse is pretty well dead, but hard to not include additional thoughts as they occur to me and be curious about the rationale behind opposing viewpoints. I think it matters, beyond trying to convince people that I'm right. Besides, I don't see a lot of more pressing topics vying for our attention at the moment.