310 replies to this topic

[wreckerboy]

"I ran towards the front with that engine (typically top 10 or better in our 40 car fields) for a large part of that time."

But that could mean a person is typically within a couple seconds at the checkered, or much further back. I would say that a good driver can finish top 25% at most Majors with very similar engine costs, but that's not necessarily considered competative.

Steve, in the absence of solid data that would be a valid consideration. However, in reality I typically run within a second or less of the leaders. I know why they are faster than me, and I'm satisfied that it isn't horsepower, it's talent behind the wheel. The top 10-15 of us usually are within two seconds on a 1:29 pace set by the leaders.

As for the peak power argument, again valid. But remember that we are all on the same engine and management system, and if the best SM minds in the country haven't figured out how to LEGALLY optimise the 1.6 for that, I'm not too worried. Could it happen? Could a no-holds barred effort show up and slaughter the field? Absolutely. Has it happened? Not yet. But then again, that can happen anywhere, any time. No rule can control spending.

As you said, and as I and others have said, it's the culture. Part of that culture is to respect the mission statement and the rules. Ours works. Others are welcome to duplicate it.

[Bench Racer]

There would not be a 1.6 majors class.

 

However there will come a day when the popup head light cars will run separately and many people think that time is now.

 

In my opinion SM has taken a turn for the worse over the last few years and even though it is still a great class I believe we should start moving towards more of a spec class.

 

The only way to do that is to reduce the amount of dissimilar cars.

 

And nobody would haul two cars because the 1.6/1.8 cars would run in the same group as the 99/01 cars at the regional level. 

Point 1, we agree.

 

Point 2, it's happening today.

 

Point 3, how about we start by getting rid of the grippy tires and let the default be the driver. 

 

Point 4, my original comment was I believe understood by the original poster. I knew exactly what I posted.

 

 

Rob, the issue I view with the SSM class is when and if it spreads the rules will be bastardized the same as they were for the Spec7 (SRX7) class.

[Danica Davison]

Going off what MPR said about high cost of tires.  I just bought my first set of stickers ever at the sebring majors while other guys all throughout the pack (not just the front) are buying multiple sets of stickers a weekend.  If the demand is so high for the tires, hoosier will continue to sell them at a high price and the higher budget guys will keep buying.  I am not complaining about those guys, as they are doing what it takes to win races. But, I am sure if we can save cost of tires all around, I doubt anyone will complain about saving money

 

Looking for opinions here, good idea or bad idea?:  

Limit the number of stickers you could race in one weekend.  My opinion is probably different than some on this but it may even out the playing field more, involves a little more strategy on when to use the tires during the weekend, as well as well as making the driver skill level more important 

 

Any problems or disagreements with that?  Would it be possible to implement or control at the track?

[dstevens]

Circle track (and others as well) limit not only the number of tires used but how many you can buy over a season and/or event.  For example the feature class might be able to buy 6 tires at the first event of the year.  After that they can buy two tires per race.  The tires are serialized and checked against a master list.  That sort of rule is much more difficult to enforce on a traveling series though karting org SKUSA does it.  There is also a rule where you must start the race on the same tires on which you qualified.  Tire amounts for practice are not limited, use as many as you like from whatever source you like.  One issue with using tire limits in Majors level racing is that it kills the business model of tire supply.  It works to a degree in circle track and karting because you are required to buy race tires from the sanction making it easier to control.  It's much easier to implement in a 20-30 car field than it would be in some of the national SM fields where there are 50-60 cars.

 

As long as there are regional, limited cost classes for Miata, SSM for example, I don't see the need to limit tires in SM proper.  SM is the pro level class and should stay that way.  Those that spend more in a season on their cars and programs than most people make in a year are free to do that.    Using tire limits in SSM (if any of the regions thought it was an issue) could be implemented in the same way the engine sealing and dyno runs are implemented currently.  If the goal is affordable, grass roots style racing a non national, limited spec class like SSM is a better way to go rather than neutering SM.

[Bench Racer]

 

 

As long as there are regional, limited cost classes for Miata, SSM for example, I don't see the need to limit tires in SM proper.  

 

SM is the pro level class and should stay that way.  

Your point 1, SMT (where any tire of spec line size may be used) is in place so folks can use any tire they happen to have or they could be SM7 take-offs. Anybody that wants to run autocross sticky tires, enjoy yourself.  

 

Your point 2, is SM racing in the SSCA Pro series this year. I didn't see the SCCA memo or FasTrack notice.

[wreckerboy]

Rob, the issue I view with the SSM class is when and if it spreads the rules will be bastardized the same as they were for the Spec7 (SRX7) class.

Which is why time and time again I have said that this class works because we have local control. In fact, in my post earlier today I said that "I shudder to think what would happen if Topeka got hold of our rule set" or words to that effect. I (personally) don't want to see this class go National. Meddling from "well meaning" parties from around the nation would inevitably ruin it and I'd end up finding someplace else to race. As proof of that was the fight that broke out in these very pages a few years ago when NER tried to get WDCR to follow their blueprint for SSM. Mike Collins, if you're reading along, can flesh out the details, but essentially he pointed out that "our program works, why should we change it to meet your desires?" The net is that they have SSM, SM2, SMT, and probably SSID for all I know, none of which are as popular as WDCR. By georgraphy I'm a NER driver, yet I chose to make the 600 mile round trip to MARRS events because it meets my racing needs, one of which is large fields. Better to run in front of 40 than 10.

There is nothing wrong with National level SM for my point of view. If I wanted to race there I'd recognize the limitations of my current car and probably run a 99 or whatever is the flavor du jour. I appreciate what has been done to give the 1.6 a break, but adhere to the IT "warts and all" mentality that says there is no guarantee of competitiveness.




PS - I have been informed by The Benevolent Dictator that I misspelled his name earlier. He's benevolent, but he is a dictator. I expect a through inspection, teardown, and spelling quiz at every race for the next few months....

[Bench Racer]

PS - I have been informed by The Benevolent Dictator that I misspelled his name earlier. He's benevolent, but he is a dictator. I expect a through inspection, teardown, and spelling quiz at every race for the next few months....

Totally understand your points, agree with all. Got ta love the BD guy for keeping the SSM stuff together. Sort of like the SCCA CCC (aka BD) that SM wanted and now maybe don't appreciate so much.

[dstevens]

Your point 1, SMT (where any tire of spec line size may be used) is in place so folks can use any tire they happen to have or they could be SM7 take-offs. Anybody that wants to run autocross sticky tires, enjoy yourself.  

 

Your point 2, is SM racing in the SSCA Pro series this year. I didn't see the SCCA memo or FasTrack notice.

Pro level class, Bench Man.  The optics of the class are determined by reality and not necessarily what some book from Topeka might say.  Pro level drivers, prep and costs.  It's amateur racing at a pro level. They are spending as much and in some case more than what regional pro late models or dirt trackers or off road spend and come nowhere close to making any of that back.  It's pro level because of the quality, not the rule book.

[Jim Drago]

Rob
Easy to make claims in either direction.. But hard to argue that funding, talent and preparation wins races on every level, in all forms of racing. Look at NASCAR with the tightest of rules, the best teams continue to win regardless of the rules implemented each week, month and year. Sorry to say, but if we all decided to leave Sm majors tour and run SSM tomorrow. It would no longer but the class you enjoy right now. This could be done without violating any of the rules in the book as well. Unfortunately, it would get more expensive for all to play and that's not what the masses want for SSM.. It does well because of the mindset of the people in the series. Enjoy what you have, but realize If three talented, well funded drivers decide to use their abilities and funding to win in SSM things will start to change for the worse. It doesn't happen Bc of the culture and positive peer pressure.
I agree with Stevens post 100% put a 200k purse up for year end title and everything you enjoy on SSM will disappear.
Jim

[Jim Drago]

Going off what MPR said about high cost of tires. I just bought my first set of stickers ever at the sebring majors while other guys all throughout the pack (not just the front) are buying multiple sets of stickers a weekend. If the demand is so high for the tires, hoosier will continue to sell them at a high price and the higher budget guys will keep buying. I am not complaining about those guys, as they are doing what it takes to win races. But, I am sure if we can save cost of tires all around, I doubt anyone will complain about saving money

Looking for opinions here, good idea or bad idea?:
Limit the number of stickers you could race in one weekend. My opinion is probably different than some on this but it may even out the playing field more, involves a little more strategy on when to use the tires during the weekend, as well as well as making the driver skill level more important

Any problems or disagreements with that? Would it be possible to implement or control at the track?

Really didn't see many people using multiple sets of stickers with the exception of a couple guys? We used one set each as did most of Autotecknik guys? But I think most would have no issue limiting the use of tires if it was implemented in a painless manner. Meaning not wasting hours checking tires etc.
We talked about this a few years ago but never got much traction

[wreckerboy]

Jim, you and I are in agreement. You can't legislate money out of racing. It's the culture that makes it work. We don't want the culture that has evolved in SM, not saying anything is wrong with it, just not for us. As for talented people running in SSM, you are all welcome to come and give it a shot. The more the merrier!

[Jim Drago]

I think we also agree money alone isn't winning anything

[dstevens]

A strong, authoritarian sanction can absolutely dictate a tight rules package and control spending on the vehicle and the cost to compete over an event.  At the upper end they can even control how much you test.  But that's not what SCCA is or was even intended to be.  Though you can't stop racers from spending money in and of itself, an authoritarian sanction can indeed control costs regardless of any sort of culture among racers.  The governance model off SCCA doesn't allow for that sort of management style.  For example Helton could come out tomorrow and tell the Cup teams "you can't do X, Y or Z, that's the way it is, hit the bricks if you don't like it".  He would couch in in more palatable terms (though Big Bill or Bill Jr would likely say it exactly like that) but the reality is it's a "my way or highway" style when push comes to shove.  The structure of the org, the bylaws and the dainty sensibilities of some of the racers don't allow for that in SCCA racing.  

 

Money will always be a part of racing.  You need the money to buy the equipment, develop the equipment and get the seat time to make the most of the equipment.  A strong sanction can either ban or disincentivize aspects to insure cost reduction. 

[LarryKing]

A 200k purse for an SCCA class?!?

 

WOW!!!!

 

When did that happen? Why am I just hearing about this? Where do I get more info? Who is putting up the money? How do I sign-up?

[MPR22]

[quote name="Walter Vetter" post="86994" timestamp="1454332456"]A 200k purse for an SCCA class?!?
 
WOW!!!!
 
When did that happen? Why am I just hearing about this? Where do I get more info? Who is putting up the money? How do I sign-up?[/quote

And just like racing on any level you would have to spend 400k to win 200k. Racing is an hungry black hole with and endless apatite for money.

[David L]

Jim " Enjoy what you have, but realize If three talented, well funded drivers decide to use their abilities and funding to win in SSM things will start to change for the worse."

 

That sums it up right there Jim you and I finally agree.

 

The difference is perspective,

 

MY perspective: You say there are no well funded, talented SSM drivers, but the opposite is quite true, the difference is they do not choose to use their money to cheat or gain the system. A well prepped car is no cheat, a coached driver is no cheat. In MARRS the drivers have said no to an arms race and have strictly adhered to the ORIGINAL spirit and intent of SEC MIATA  We are glad to keep people like you from running SSM. And for all you haters the MARRS series travels, we go wherever the hell we want.  

 

Your perspective: Can't drive outspend'um

[dstevens]

Jim " Enjoy what you have, but realize If three talented, well funded drivers decide to use their abilities and funding to win in SSM things will start to change for the worse."

 

That sums it up right there Jim you and I finally agree.

 

The difference is perspective,

 

MY perspective: You say there are no well funded, talented SSM drivers, but the opposite is quite true, the difference is they do not choose to use their money to cheat or gain the system. A well prepped car is no cheat, a coached driver is no cheat. In MARRS the drivers have said no to an arms race and have strictly adhered to the ORIGINAL spirit and intent of SEC MIATA  We are glad to keep people like you from running SSM. And for all you haters the MARRS series travels, we go wherever the hell we want.  

 

Your perspective: Can't drive outspend'um

Your perspective assumes that those with larger budgets are attempting to find cheats, not use those budgets to exploit the maximum of the rules package.  There is no such thing as intent of the rules in racing.  There are the rules and those rules are pushed to the max by all teams wishing to be competitive in a populated, highly competitive class.  Intent is subjective and can't be quantified in a rule book unless a specific example or repeatable measurement is given.  Otherwise it's human opinion.  I think it naive to assume that the good SSM teams are leaving speed on the table by not using every last inch of the regs.  The difference is the box in which the car spec is much tighter than in SM.  The perspective that all top teams are trying to cover up cheating or game the rules is in the same boat as saying all those that race limited budget or spec classes don't want competition and would like a trophy for all environment.  I don't see either as being the case.

 

Having the tighter rules package while also assuming that rules package makes the cars more equal is a misnomer as well.  Cars built to the same spec are not necessarily the same.  Case in point Indycar.  It's basically a spec series now.  One tub with some different aero, homologated, sealed engines and a strict limit on which parts can be built and put on the car.  Put a top driver, say Hinch, in two cars of the same spec from different teams and there will be different results.  In this case Andretti and Schmidt Peterson.  The secret sauce, regardless of the level of racing is being able to take a good driver and tune the car not only to that drivers style but also to the circuit and any environmental factors at that particular time.  The driver is a big part of it but to say the driver is the key component ignores the complexities of racing in general and sells tuning and last minute decision making short.

[David L]

Thats real long winded.

 

It comes down to those who cheat and those who know that cheating is not what club racing is all about. The argument that pushing the limit to far is just a part of racing, is one lobbied by the guys cheating not the 95%

[dstevens]

Racing is racing.  Period.  Your perspective seems to be of if one is trying to extract the most from a particular spec, it's cheating.  That's an easy excuse for those that don't have competitive programs.

[Jim Drago]

Jim " Enjoy what you have, but realize If three talented, well funded drivers decide to use their abilities and funding to win in SSM things will start to change for the worse."
 
That sums it up right there Jim you and I finally agree.
 
The difference is perspective,
 
MY perspective: You say there are no well funded, talented SSM drivers, but the opposite is quite true, the difference is they do not choose to use their money to cheat or gain the system. A well prepped car is no cheat, a coached driver is no cheat. In MARRS the drivers have said no to an arms race and have strictly adhered to the ORIGINAL spirit and intent of SEC MIATA  We are glad to keep people like you from running SSM. And for all you haters the MARRS series travels, we go wherever the hell we want.  
 
Your perspective: Can't drive outspend'um

Not worth the effort...

Read dstevens post and educate yourself!