310 replies to this topic

[Johnny D]

Todd - you're on the list, care to comment on the quality of cars and level of racing you have experienced in this and other SSM races you've participated in at WDC?

If I saw the result correctly, he didn't do well. DNF, both races ?. Should be an interesting comment from him.

But I'd assume he's run other SSM races so lets hope for the best. ​

J~

[Johnny D]

I don't usually participate much in these discussions, but I'd like to throw in my two cents on SM budgets. Sure there are guys with $40k+ builds, but nobody needs to spend that for a front running car. I'm not the fastest guy out there, but I think I can legitimately claim that a low to medium budget racer can run near the front.
 
I bought my 1.6 five years ago and my NB two years ago for a combined total of less than $30k. Both are very good, race winning cars, though the NB is definitely better preped.
I bought all my own setup equipment and a tire machine for around $2k and haven't paid a dime for alignments or tire mounting in five years. I do all my own work, except motor and transmission building. I work out of a two car garage in the suburbs. I've never paid for coaching. I've never showed up to a Majors with more than one set of sticker tires. I haven't added up the numbers for obvious reasons, but my season budget is in the vicinity of $10k.
 
Granted the time commitment is enormous. And I rely more than I would prefer on the generosity of Drago, Fowler, and especially Mike Rossini for expert advice and assistance at the track. But don't tell me you need to spend a fortune to get on the podium.

10k???
Not counting entry fees and gas to and from the track ??
Do tell.
J~

[Jonathan Davis]

10k???
Not counting entry fees and gas to and from the track ??
Do tell.
J~

 

Going by possibly faulty memory...

I did six Majors this year, mostly close to home. $3000 entry? $2000 gas?

I bought two sets of Hoosiers (I had some left from last year and I won a few as well). $1500

Two or three sets of brake pads, I think. Maybe $800?

No crash damage, lost a transmission. $1000 for that.

Refreshed the head before the season. Say another $1000.

Maybe another $1000 for miscellaneous parts and fluids. No major repairs this year.

Many hours working in the garage. Free, unless you're married

 

I did a few NASA regionals as well, plus the east coast championships.

Tire cost for that was basically zero between the longevity of Toyos and getting enough Toyo bucks.

$2500 for entry fees?

 

So I guess a bit over $10k, and I might be missing some stuff, but it's in the ballpark. Also ignoring contingency money, which is far from guaranteed. And I tried to run in both clubs, which makes it more difficult than it needs to be...

[dstevens]

Great regional program but, in my opinion almost impossible to create a level playing field nationally.   

Making it a national class would be the worst thing for it.

[racerbeav]

Just getting around to reading this with travel, etc. Thanks for the comments/feedback Dan, Todd, et. al. I had a great time racing at the ARRC in SMSE. Interestingly enough, I was three seconds off of my previoius best time at Road Atlanta so I obviously need to dial in my consistency!

As for my take on SMSE, here's the thing - I'm not out to win the Runoffs at this point. There's simply too much involvement and priorities with my kids, career, and the like to make that happen at this point in my life. Would I want to do it one day? You bet!! For now, I'm just out there having fun being a guy, reliving my old motocross days, getting the competitiveness out of my system. When I've got every single Miata literally driving by me down the straightaways - regardless of the track but especially at RA and VIR - SMSE provides a good forum for me to be more competitive with "like" equipment.

I simply cannot justify selling my 1.6 for $7,500 (if I can even sell it at all) and then putting that towards a competitive NB car that's easily $20K+. That was a loss I took when I first bought my 1.6. I'm now reaping what I sowed back then before I knew much about SM. I suspect a pro-built motor for my tired 1.6 will help me a bit and that's a "cheaper" route. That said, there's still more car than driver. For instance, I'm a whole second off the lap time of a 2015 ARRC Top 10 runner who drove my car at Roebling recently.

As for everyone gets a trophy, I agree! Those who know me and see my societal/political-related posts on other social media know that I'm not that kind of guy. It's certainly not as glorious as being up on the SM podium with Steyn, Clements, Brown and others who are at the top of this game. But if I work hard and go out and do my best with what I've got and happen to make it onto the podium for SMSE, I'll take it.

All of this said, it does grind my gears a bit knowing that those of us with 1.6 cars will likely be "given" modifications that, according to the best in the business, will be nothing of real value. I think unless and until something bigger/better is implemented for 1.6 owners (especially those who tend to drive the long and hilly tracks like I do), we'll continue to see more interest in SMSE.

At the end of the day, I've got nothing to prove/accomplish other than to make myself better and continue making new friends every time I go to the track....the latter of which is just as enjoyable and important as anything else.

[Brian Ghidinelli]

 

3.) Most of the 1.6L community will not support a 2k to 3k hit to make the car more competitive.  I think they should..... I think compression might be the right answer, but we don't and won't know without testing it.  No matte what solution we come up with some will love it and some will hate it.  We (SMAC) have to try to decipher the attitude of the class from about 20 letters......  20 out of thousands of drivers.... 20....  We are hosed no matter what we do.... It's a no win situation.

 

 

Has the SCCA and SMAC done any honest market research? Rather than work from 20 letters and a gut feel or forum consensus, why not get the names and phone numbers of 100 racers who campaigned 1.6s last year and 100 racers who campaigned 1.6s previously but not in the last year or two and call them?  Or email them one on one?  If you want to attract a customer who is no longer buying, waiting for them to tell you what you did wrong is a long shot. You really want the input of people who aren't already voicing it because they are leaving and/or have left.

 

I know the SMAC is volunteer - it isn't necessary that you guys do this work firsthand, but somebody needs to do it if you want to know the real reasons (and therefore, the real fixes).

[Bench Racer]

Brian, truer words ^ were never spoken better. I fully understand the SMAC/CRB are volunteer. To my understanding (I've been wrong a time or two) a few years ago the SCCA had zero factual knowledge of how many cars exist for each spec line, hence how many 1.6 and who are the drivers/owners.

[Weekend Warrior]

From my perspective, SSM and others like it have always been a "best of the rest", or to be rude "trophy for everyone", kind of class, no matter how they dress them up. Feel free to tell me where I'm wrong, but it seems like the greatest cost savings is simply in the fact that few if any top teams compete, so a <90% prepped car with a decent driver can win. 

You are welcome to come out and race in our "trophy for everyone" class. I will even pay your entry fee if you can finish in the top 10. Of course your car will have to comply with our rules and be dyno'd like everyone else's. Don't get caught using anything not allowed in the rules because I don't care if you like me or not, you will get moved to DFL.

 

You want a "Majors" level driver that wins in SSM? Todd Lamb is one, he found the competition extremely tight...in the top 10. Brian Price, Kevin Kopp, and many others. Heck, I have won National at Summit Point (against a National Champion) and have yet to win in SSM. 

 

SSM has its own run group and is always the largest run group. There are 40+ participants that don't get a trophy in our "trophy for everyone" class, yet they keep coming out...because it works, its fun and the concern about someone having an unfair advantage is (almost) completely removed. It is what grassroots racing is all about. I hope It will not be a "Majors" class, but if you want to have a class that brings out excellent competition on a level playing field, this is it.

 

Why any region would not want to follow our PROVEN path, amazes me. Regions have tried SMS,SM2,SM* and they never get the turnout/competition that we do.

 

FWIW, I paid $5,000 for my SSM and put about another $2,000 into it. It better win this year because I will not be spending as much time administering SSM and will have more time to perform proper prep. 

[Weekend Warrior]

From what I have learned during conversations with my east coast friends;

 

SSM was built on the premise of what SM was originally thought to be. Low cost, low modification, tight competition. The SSM group has  kept to that philosophy. No rules creap. No expensive parts. No special grease. They compete with each other. Not against each other. Creative rules interpritation is frowned upon. If you built a $30k SSm you would shunned.

 

SM competes very hard against each other. The stated class philosophies may be similar. But the interpritation is totally different. In SM pushing the envelope is the norm.  If Danny has it, Jim wants it. When Jim gets it he will sell it to everyone else. And the cost escalates. Nothing wrong with that, but a totally different mindset than what I think SSM drivers have. It all goes back to the "tech shed legal" days.

 

From my understanding, there is virtually zero crossover between SM and SSM on a given weekend.

 

I have never even seen a SSM race, but the guys who race them , LOVE IT. And they do not wish to race a SM.

 

Dave

Very good representation.

[High Chair]

You are welcome to come out and race in our "trophy for everyone" class. I will even pay your entry fee if you can finish in the top 10. Of course your car will have to comply with our rules and be dyno'd like everyone else's. Don't get caught using anything not allowed in the rules because I don't care if you like me or not, you will get moved to DFL.

 

You want a "Majors" level driver that wins in SSM? Todd Lamb is one, he found the competition extremely tight...in the top 10. Brian Price, Kevin Kopp, etc. and many others. Heck, I have won National at Summit Point (against a National Champion) and have yet to win in SSM. 

 

SSM has its own run group and is always the largest run group. There are 40+ participants that don't get a trophy in our "trophy for everyone" class, yet they keep coming out...because it works, its fun and the concern about someone having an unfair advantage is (almost) completely removed. It is what grassroots racing is all about. I hope It will not be a "Majors" class, but if you want to have a class that brings out excellent competition on a level playing field, this is it.

 

Why any region would not want to follow our PROVEN path, amazes me. Regions have tried SMS,SM2,SM* and they never get the turnout/competition that we do.

 

FWIW, I paid $5,000 for my SSM and put about another $2,000 into it. It better win this year because I will not be spending as much time administering SSM and will have more time to perform proper prep. 

Interesting! 

[Steve Scheifler]

You read into my post things I did not type. I did not question the talent, only the level of motivation./incentive. In other words, just transplanting a frequent Majors winner into one of those cars doesn't make them an easy winner, never said it would. BUT, despite the current differences in rules, if SSM became a big deal nationally with all the hype, contingencies, coverage, "prestige" etc., then the top teams would do whatever it takes within the rules, and sometimes beyond, to get more out of the cars. Eventually you need to ensure that they are not getting around the "better" rules so you start more and more invasive tech, catch a few, and the escalation continues. It is my contention that your class is "better" largely because it is "less". Call that what you like, just don't accuse me of saying things I did not.

[Weekend Warrior]

You read into my post things I did not type. I did not question the talent, only the level of motivation./incentive. In other words, just transplanting a frequent Majors winner into one of those cars doesn't make them an easy winner, never said it would. BUT, despite the current differences in rules, if SSM became a big deal nationally with all the hype, contingencies, coverage, "prestige" etc., then the top teams would do whatever it takes within the rules, and sometimes beyond, to get more out of the cars. Eventually you need to ensure that they are not getting around the "better" rules so you start more and more invasive tech, catch a few, and the escalation continues. It is my contention that your class is "better" largely because it is "less". Call that what you like, just don't accuse me of saying things I did not.

Your words quoted. I didn't add to them.

 

You seem to have a negative view of success. Any race class would have to offer more invasive tech as it became more successful due to attracting more competitors. This is why we made minor refinements to our ruleset over the past years. 

[Jim Drago]

I know some people don't want to hear this as it doesn't fit the impression many have of the majors level cars. I would be willing to bet that the top 20 cars at the first two majors this year in Florida would dyno as close as ANY sealed racing series in existence and yes I believe the same twenty cars will be compliant. ( probably more so than any sealed racing series)
SSM works and it is a great class. Part of the reason for their success is they have huge numbers in the region,one of the biggest. SSM is mostly a single track series and very tightly controlled. And it works primarily BC this is what the competitors in this series want.

[Bench Racer]

SSM works and it is a great class. Part of the reason for their success is they have huge numbers in the region, one of the biggest. SSM is mostly a single track series and very tightly controlled. And it works primarily BC this is what the competitors in this series want.

We have a winner

[ner88]

SSM is a great success but only in MARRS.

Why not anywhere else??

Without leadership and a committed group, it does not work.

SM2 allowed anyone to take a built car (not purpose built) and be competitive.

[Weekend Warrior]

SSM is a great success but only in MARRS.

Why not anywhere else??

Without leadership and a committed group, it does not work.

SM2 allowed anyone to take a built car (not purpose built) and be competitive.

I don't know of any region that has adopted our complete rules...

[Steve Scheifler]

Your words quoted. I didn't add to them.

You seem to have a negative view of success. Any race class would have to offer more invasive tech as it became more successful due to attracting more competitors. This is why we made minor refinements to our ruleset over the past years.

But if you read all of my posts in this topic you should interpret them to mean what I just attempted to say again. I just think you give far too much credit for success to the rules. And, I don't think I have a negative view of success, at least as I interpret the phrase, but you don't need to have lived very long or been very observant to see that success is very often its own worst enemy. History is buried in examples, not just in racing but in almost everything worthwhile. Screwing up a good thing is what we do best.

[Weekend Warrior]

We will just have to agree to disagree on both of your points. I know the rules are what keeps out rules creep, keeps the car very affordable and the competition is extremely talented. This class certainly isn't as successful because of my or my predecessor's good looks and charming personalities.

As for "success very often being its own worst enemy" and "screwing up is what we do best", it all comes down to your perspective. I love racing. I think SM is amazing. I prefer a significantly less costly and much more grassroots version that we have here. Success is why I am able to what I do helping others. Success is why I can go racing. Much rather prefer success over failure, but sometimes it takes both, so I embrace both. Perspective.

Wow, pretty deep for 6am. I'm done here...

[steve]

This class certainly isn't as successful because of my or my predecessor's good looks and charming personalities. ...

Don't sell yourself short.

[dstevens]

SSM is a great success but only in MARRS.

Why not anywhere else??

Without leadership and a committed group, it does not work.

SM2 allowed anyone to take a built car (not purpose built) and be competitive.

Relative to how many run in the region SFR has a strong SSM program.  It's considered a success.  

 

An observation on some of the other posts not only in this thread but throughout the forum in general...

 

There is a market for limited cost, limited experience classes throughout racing, not just club sports cars.  SM doesn't serve that market.  A few of the circle tracks here can be draconian about the entry level classes.  One stops awarding points after 3 wins, another uses weight penalties to get them to change classes and if that doesn't work they don't let them run in that class.   Their attitude is enter the next class up or leave if you don't like it.      

 

The judgmental attitude displayed by some towards those that don't wish to run in a class as intense as SM is bullshit.  Not everyone has the means, time or skill to run with the big dogs but that doesn't mean they should be subjected to terms like "trophy for all" or disparaged because for whatever reason they can't or choose not to run at that level.  The regional, limited, entry level classes are good things not only for SM but for club racing in general.  They should be embraced, not shunned.