310 replies to this topic

[ner88]

I've been in SM since 2000.

I was part of the original group that set down the SSM rules and was all in.

I'm not being negative towards this class at all.

It died in the NE, other than Summit, because unlike MARRS no one was willing to take control and push forward SSM as a class.

Several years later, many NA cars are sitting because the owners didn't feel they could be competitive any longer and who would buy an NA car???

I noticed at the ARRC, SM2, did a little research and got the NE Division to accept the class.

Although not as successful as MARRS SSM, its one of the NE's most popular classes.

Why not re-introduce SSM? Well most of the cars were already converted to SM.

Switching them back was an added expense and still no one willing to take the reins.

[Bench Racer]

To embrace what Dave Stevens is saying!!!

 

How many newbies, if you were even around remember what Jim Daniels said when Spec Miata was Regional only and some were bitching about wanting Spec Miata to become National, "be careful what you wish for". 

 

Also there are 4 times as many Regional Spec Miata entries (twenty some hundred) as there are Majors Spec Miata entries (eight hundred) per season.

 

Alan, what are the total number of SSM entries in the SSM series per season?

 

Dave, what are the total number of SFR SSM entries per season?

[steve]

Alan, what are the total number of SSM entries in the SSM series per season?

 

I'm no Alan, but 79 different drivers participated in at least one weekend in WDCR-SSM at Summit Point last year (76 in 2014), with between 40 and 45 drivers participating each weekend.

[dstevens]

I've been in SM since 2000.

I was part of the original group that set down the SSM rules and was all in.

I'm not being negative towards this class at all.

It died in the NE, other than Summit, because unlike MARRS no one was willing to take control and push forward SSM as a class.

Several years later, many NA cars are sitting because the owners didn't feel they could be competitive any longer and who would buy an NA car???

I noticed at the ARRC, SM2, did a little research and got the NE Division to accept the class.

Although not as successful as MARRS SSM, its one of the NE's most popular classes.

Why not re-introduce SSM? Well most of the cars were already converted to SM.

Switching them back was an added expense and still no one willing to take the reins.

I didn't think you were being negative.  Had I thought that I would have said so.  I didn't mention specifics as it's pretty obvious in just reading the posts and I don't want to turn the thread into a monkeys throwing dung show.

 

As for changing the cars back, it's more a matter of removing parts and replacing with stock parts.  The biggest thing is the dyno and the sealing.   I think what is says in the region mentioned in your post is that the market in that region isn't interested in the class.  Fair enough.

 

 

 

Dave, what are the total number of SFR SSM entries per season?

Thanks Benchy, I'd have to go back and count to know what the totals are.  I do know it does well for out here, 15 to 20 cars and while that's not east coast or TX numbers it's good for out here.  I think the numbers racing out here are more of a reflection that we are busy tanning, working on our screenplays and farming kale...

[Steve Scheifler]

dstevens and anyone else still tuned in, I hope that my skepticism about why SSM remains so successful is not interpreted as being disparaging of the class or participants. My earlier posts should make it clear that I am supportive of the SEDiv efforts to offer an alternative class for those who feel left behind for whatever reason. The main debate seemed to revolve around whether it splinters SM, and whether a significantly different rule set was key to it being acceptable in the opinion of some. To me the main thing is that they are trying something based on what they heard from their members, and no doubt will adjust as needed in the future. I feel the same about SSM and I think I was clear that calling it a trophy for all class would be rude, and miss the point.

Meanwhile I agree with Mr. Drago about the current state of SM. Without the dyno and sealing, anyone who preps for running at the front is probably just as close on power and just as "legal" as the SSM front runners. But yes, at a cost premium, though perhaps not as much as some would think.

The bottom line is that each region should be responsive to their members, but what works won't always look the same across the country and there is nothing wrong with trying something a little different, especially when that means starting with minimal up-front effort and expense for people to give it a try and gauge interest.

[MPR22]

dstevens and anyone else still tuned in, I hope that my skepticism about why SSM remains so successful is not interpreted as being disparaging of the class or participants. My earlier posts should make it clear that I am supportive of the SEDiv efforts to offer an alternative class for those who feel left behind for whatever reason. The main debate seemed to revolve around whether it splinters SM, and whether a significantly different rule set was key to it being acceptable in the opinion of some. To me the main thing is that they are trying something based on what they heard from their members, and no doubt will adjust as needed in the future. I feel the same about SSM and I think I was clear that calling it a trophy for all class would be rude, and miss the point.
Meanwhile I agree with Mr. Drago about the current state of SM. Without the dyno and sealing, anyone who preps for running at the front is probably just as close on power and just as "legal" as the SSM front runners. But yes, at a cost premium, though perhaps not as much as some would think.
The bottom line is that each region should be responsive to their members, but what works won't always look the same across the country and there is nothing wrong with trying something a little different, especially when that means starting with minimal up-front effort and expense for people to give it a try and gauge interest.

Your last paragraph sums up my thoughts on the class pretty well. Once we get past the initial cost of an engine in SM I don't see any cost savings in SSM. The other prep work will be done, the need to keep that cheaper engine running at peak condition will Be the same as SM. Tires cost just as much and good tries win races. The MARRS series cuts out travel costs as it is one track but that probably only works at 2 other tracks in the country with significant population bases near the tracks to have 40 racers.

My costs to race in order:
Tires
Travel
Entry Fees

I would love to race a series that was serious about cost control on tires. Unfortunately the racing organizations strike deals with tire companies to sell tires not keep cost down. Love the contingencies because I benefit from them but most don't. Who would like to race all year on 2 sets tires for a total cost of $800? One word, Direzzas

[Pat Ross]

My opinion is that we need to split the SM class between NA 1.6 and the 1.8s. When we go into Road Atlanta to a NASA event there are two BMW classes, E-30 and the E-36/E-46 classes. Both are large classes. They are in the same run group but with a split start. I think the same would work for SM.

[Bench Racer]

My opinion is that we need to split the SM class between NA 1.6 and the 1.8s. When we go into Road Atlanta to a NASA event there are two BMW classes, E-30 and the E-36/E-46 classes. Both are large classes. They are in the same run group but with a split start. I think the same would work for SM.

Sure, then the high rollers could haul two cars and race two different SM classes. Good luck pulling off a 1.6 SM Majors class.

[Jim Drago]

Once we get past the initial cost of an engine in SM I don't see any cost savings in SSM.
My costs to race in order:
Tires
Travel
Entry Fees

I dont see that either? Why would the engines be less? I would do all within my power to build an engine that makes close to max HP and TQ as possible with a flat of a curve as possible. Which would be more time testing etc.

We have to ask ourselves.. If SM majors became SSM tomorrow and all the same cast of characters running the majors switched. Can any of you say with a straight face that we would save one dollar other than entry fees over what we are spending now? I can't.

[LarryKing]

If SM majors became SSM tomorrow and all the same cast of characters running the majors switched

 

I think you're missing something Jim. First SM Majors isn't, ever, going to become SSM, and second, since that is not going to ever happen then the win at any cost crowd will remain in SM and leave SSM and/or SMSE for the racers that don't have the time, money, desire to take everything to the Nth degree.

 

Why argue hypotheticals?

[MPR22]

I think you're missing something Jim. First SM Majors isn't, ever, going to become SSM, and second, since that is not happening the win at any cost crowd will remain in SM and leave SSM and/or SMSE for the racers that don't have the time, money, desire to take everything to the Nth degree.

But it only takes one person to start the fire.  Why do so many people leave SM to race other classes?  They can't win in SM so the go to easier classes.   Do you think that won't happen if SSM is perceived as low hanging fruit if they just spend a little more on their engines.  Hope its not the case but human nature is what it is.  Now put those same ego maniacs on slower tires and they may think twice before venturing down that path.  Just not enough prestige running on street tires in a street miata.  

[Pat Ross]

Bench,

Are you suggesting that one driver could drive two cars in one race?? The BMWs run in the same group with a split start.

[Jim Drago]

I think you're missing something Jim. First SM Majors isn't, ever, going to become SSM, and second, since that is not going to ever happen then the win at any cost crowd will remain in SM and leave SSM and/or SMSE for the racers that don't have the time, money, desire to take everything to the Nth degree.
 
Why argue hypotheticals?

So you are saying you agree with me then?


And why argue hypotheticals? how long have you been on this site now? That's all we argue

[Bench Racer]

Bench,

Are you suggesting that one driver could drive two cars in one race?? The BMWs run in the same group with a split start.

I read what you posted and I'm sure you got the point.

 

1.6 Majors class will not happen no matter who push's the agenda.  

[Jim Drago]

1.6 Majors class will not happen no matter who push's the agenda.

1.6 majors class can not happen and will never happen, you are absolutely correct.

[FTodaro]

But it only takes one person to start the fire.  Why do so many people leave SM to race other classes?  They can't win in SM so the go to easier classes.   Do you think that won't happen if SSM is perceived as low hanging fruit if they just spend a little more on their engines.  Hope its not the case but human nature is what it is.  Now put those same ego maniacs on slower tires and they may think twice before venturing down that path.  Just not enough prestige running on street tires in a street miata.  

I am not disagreeing with this statement, I am adding a point. People race for many reasons, some want to win, and go race a class with two cars. Some want the competition and race classes like SM to test their metal against the best. Some want to have as much fun as possible for the fewest dollars. I think in general the classes that do the best find a big group of people with the same goals.

 

I think our regional racing program in the Great Lakes does well at serving up low cost racing with great competition. Up until two years ago our region allowed Open Tire, but when the regional became a path to the runoffs that changed,

 

There was push back on taking away open tire as it allowed regional racer to offset the hardship of NASA and SCCA being on two different tires.

 

If i could make one change in Regional racing i would allow open tire. Most of the low cost options are slower but the racer gets to decide not the club.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

I am not disagreeing with this statement, I am adding a point. People race for many reasons, some want to win, and go race a class with two cars. Some want the competition and race classes like SM to test their metal against the best. Some want to have as much fun as possible for the fewest dollars. I think in general the classes that do the best find a big group of people with the same goals.
 
I think our regional racing program in the Great Lakes does well at serving up low cost racing with great competition. Up until two years ago our region allowed Open Tire, but when the regional became a path to the runoffs that changed,
 
There was push back on taking away open tire as it allowed regional racer to offset the hardship of NASA and SCCA being on two different tires.
 
If i could make one change in Regional racing i would allow open tire. Most of the low cost options are slower but the racer gets to decide not the club.

And even with all the so called push back the scca fields in the great lakes are growing while we have seen NASA dwindle... To me the pushback was from the guys who wanted to run a tire from neither org because they were perceived as faster, falsely so but non the less. Crossover business in our region is small minority of racers even looking back to 2010 when we began there was about 5 guys who were crossovers, not there may even be less. The crossover biz in the gl area is a myth much like the yeti or the 1.6 that is on mothballs waiting for their turbo chargers...

[wreckerboy]

I dont see that either? Why would the engines be less? I would do all within my power to build an engine that makes close to max HP and TQ as possible with a flat of a curve as possible. Which would be more time testing etc.We have to ask ourselves.. If SM majors became SSM tomorrow and all the same cast of characters running the majors switched. Can any of you say with a straight face that we would save one dollar other than entry fees over what we are spending now? I can't.

Yes, I can.

Just casually pricing engines, SM vs. SSM last year, I found a large difference between engine costs. This past summer I had an engine built by Performance Auto Works, who supplies many of the WDCR SSM engines. Mine, (originally built by Ed York/Meathead), spun a bearing after *only* five years and about 50 race weekends. That's including the year before it finally popped when I finished P4 in points, had a few podiums, and still had not touched the engine beyond normal maintenance. I ran towards the front with that engine (typically top 10 or better in our 40 car fields) for a large part of that time.

Including extra costs for machining the crank, paying Bret at RP Performance to install it for me (work commitments killed my availability), came in at ~ $5K. Installed and dyno sealed. Accord to Alan Olson, Our Benevolent Dictator, my engine was "really strong, and I have no excuses." In other words, it was right on the money with no problems and may have required slight detuning to be legal. The last time I priced decent 1.6 SM level motors was a few years ago and the same engine in SM trim was about another grand, exclusive of the extra labor costs I mentioned. Is anybody still even building the 1.6 for SM? By the way, many of the cars I race side by side with have home built engines that probably cost significantly less.

You mentioned tires. Don't forget, we are still on the RA1. A tire, at least for us, that remains fast even as it ages. I'll usually splurge and buy six tires for the season. I typically run the car between 8-12 times a year between race weekends and practice days at HPDE events. Come to a SSM race in the heat of August, for example, and count how many heat cycles are on the front runners tires. DavidL got grief earlier in this thread for claiming that he was running on three or four year old tires. David may be a cheap bastard, but he was telling the truth. David ran up front all the time, usually with DWible and crew, and sometimes when he was having an off day with me.

Also, because of our sealing program we are not spending endle$$ development dollars on dyno time trying this trick or that to find 1-2 HP. We have a spec exhaust, spec plugs, spec wires, and require the OE air box so all of those development avenues are closed anyway. It's enforced at every race. Cars are impounded and checked, both the top finishers and randomly selected throughout the field. Alan can talk more to it, but I do know that cars are also randomly dyno checked on race weekends as well - at the same dyno that they were originally sealed at.

Essentially, because our engine costs are reasonably locked down it allows us to concentrate on driver and chassis development, which as I recall, was the original intent of the class anyway.

I have nothing against Major Level SM, I think it is a great class. In fact, I seriously looked at building one after popping my 1.6, and went so far as to rent a NB from FlatOut for a race weekend. (And discovered that Hoosiers are indeed teh Purple Crack.) But when I looked at increased operating costs to remain as competitive as I am now (as in: a set of tires every weekend, various engine related costs for freshening and probably others) and class sizes for races in my area I discovered that for less money (including a 600 mile tow each race weeekend) I could race against more people and thus have a better time.

Can SSM work in other places? Absofrickenlutely. The reason it works for us is because we have local control, a class admin dedicated to making it work, and an entire field of participants who buy into the philosophy completely. We also have a (comparatively simple) and stable set of rules. Our rules work spectacularly as Mike Collins noted above, citing the entry numbers. I shudder to think of what would happen if Topeka got its hand on our rule set. If you're going to try SSM locally, I'd suggest adopting our rule set and philosophy in it's entirety.

[Steve Scheifler]

"I ran towards the front with that engine (typically top 10 or better in our 40 car fields) for a large part of that time."

But that could mean a person is typically within a couple seconds at the checkered, or much further back. I would say that a good driver can finish top 25% at most Majors with very similar engine costs, but that's not necessarily considered competative.

But let's say the top 25% SSMs are still close at the end, if 10 more cars showed up and they were no-holds-barred teams keeping their engine absolutely at peak power AND optimum power under the curve, where would you finish? If they also decided to race on tires that were no more than a couple tenths off their fastest, do you really think yours would keep up late in the season? We've never seen tires that could do that with perhaps the exception of Mid-O where old Toyos seemed to rule. (But that's not easy to manage either)

Put another way, if a big sponsor put up $200k in "contingency" for the season championship with 1/2 going to 1st place and the rest spread down to 10th place, do you really think the front half of the field would be NO faster than it is today and not spend any more $$ trying? If so, then the rules have achieved the heretofore seemingly impossible.

The point some of us are making is that much of the success of SSM is the culture, for lack of a better term. The mission statement and rules set the tone originally and attracted people with similar goals and priorities. The people running it and their evangelists get credit for sticking with the program and nurturing that culture, and, probably thanks to its limited scope, the class hasn't attracted a lot of win-at-any-cost teams. The class works under those conditions, I don't think anyone still doubts that, but not all agree that the written rules are the biggest factor even though they are the cultural foundation.

[High Chair]

Sure, then the high rollers could haul two cars and race two different SM classes. Good luck pulling off a 1.6 SM Majors class.

There would not be a 1.6 majors class. However there will come a day when the popup head light cars will run separately and many people think that time is now. In my opinion SM has taken a turn for the worse over the last few years and even though it is still a great class I believe we should start moving towards more of a spec class. The only way to do that is to reduce the amount of dissimilar cars. And nobody would haul two cars because the 1.6/1.8 cars would run in the same group as the 99/01 cars at the regional level.