280 replies to this topic

[Cnj]

Wow. I asked a simple question and yes, you did talk down to me. And then went off on a diatribe suggesting that I told you to “take a hike”. Bad day?

I’m all for welcoming new comers and greasing their way into the club, which may include a path that does not reflect that of others that know the system. But the way I read your initial post was that regulars should get fast tracked, while newcomers need to pay a price and “learn the ropes”. Your email above then implies that they should be happy that they don’t have to deal with how bad it used to be. At best your posture is conflicted.

It’s clear that you are committed to the club, have been so for many years and have provided tremendous (and well known) services to help the club. I never suggested otherwise.

I hope you have a safe trip back to Atlanta.

CNJ

[Martinracing98]

Use some common sense. Even our short track race series has special orientation for first time drivers. Face to face introduction to what SCCA does differently than other organizations would be a bonus. New cars to SCCA need to be check for safety. The registration folks can help them get their annual waivers signed and filed, let them know what and where things are and give them a great big welcome. Tech can help them with any small problems they might have with the car and our rules (you do plan to keep rules or are we going public school ?).

 

Almost the SM guys who know I am for the racers and always have been. I'm not a gotcha guy. I've been a SCCA member since 1970 And was a racer for 33 years and owned a prep shop for 30 years. I was also in charge of the Atlanta Region for 9 years while the Runoffs was there. I was also on the Atlanta Region BOD for 14 various years as recent as 2018.  I was one of the founders of the SARRC and ECR series and have been SARRC administrator since 1994. I understand much of your frustration and have worked behind the scene to changes things. And the most important thing is that I consider every racer I deal with at a SEDiv  race a CUSTOMER. You paid your money for a product and I want you to have the best experience you can.

 

However, when I see things suggested that just plain are out of bounds, I'm going to challenge it. There is more to SCCA that just one class or group. Try to put yourself in someone else's shoes who has a lot of time, effort and money invested before you suggest they take a hike. And guess what?  They feel the same way about SM. I can't tell you how many complaints I have because SM is never the last run group. I just answer them by saying. "ok, you can be first, but prepare to pull your head after the race". That usually brings a smile and an ok, I'm good with last.

 

My apologies for sounding like I'm talking down to you. I've been through much of this before. Almost none of you were around when you had to have your car teched at every race and had to endure the ass that didn't like you or the girl driving your car. You weren't there when we couldn't get in a lot of tracks until Saturday morning and had to leave Sat night by 6 PM. Registration often did not open until 7 PM on Friday night and closed the window at 8:30 PM no matter who was in line. Tech had the same hours.And at the Runoffs, your car had to come thru tech with the rest of your class at a certain time before you could go on track. Miss your time slot and you waited to everyone else was done. Of course, there was no entry fee for the Runoffs and only the top 6 cars from each Division got an invitation. And to get that invitation,you often ran 15 or more National races and then you still might miss the big show. I ran SW Div one year when I saw I had a schedule conflict. Won the Division and still have the plaques from the SWDiv Region I joined (only National driver in the Region.

 

So things are bad but they've been worse. Got to go fix the motorhome now so we drive from Va .back to Atlanta.

I do not think anyone suggests that annual tech should not happen. Nobody, rookie or otherwise, benefits from going through the individual race tech as is done now since nothing is tech'd. If as benefit of streamlining tech, rookies could get extra time reinforcing the things they need know that would be great.

[OrangeCrush86]

Really Mike?  In SEDiv regional SARRC races in 2019, 929 drivers have competed in all classes.The classes you propose keeping have about 400 drivers. So, you want to tell the other 529 that they can find something else to do with their cars so that we can have a primarily Mazda only race club. The total entries for SEDiv SARRC is 2146 now. The classes you want to keep account for 998 entries. So, we lose 1148 of the entries in 2019.

 

First thing I see is most going to NASA or vintage and taking there $$ with them. So the 400 drivers left in SCCA must pay the expenses that 929 were paying. Entry fees immediately at a minimum will double. So, the race you just paid $350 to enter will cost $700 or more. Everyone ok with that? And we will still have to run 5 groups so track time really doesn't increase all that much.

 

SCCA is still a CLUB. Sports Car CLUB of America. Every member should have an equal say in how and who we organize events for. Yes, the Regions need to make a little $$ to keep going. Many question why a Region needs to make $$. Well, it takes a fair amount of front money to fund a race plus there is more than just racing in SCCA. Solo, rally, etc seldom make any $$. It's low end stuff. But, it's still SCCA. We need their membership fees to help cover operating expense for the Club and Regions.

 

I do agree we need to change some things. We waste too much time with two open wheel groups totaling 25 cars. We need to have one short qualifying session and then race the rest of the time. We need to use our track time wisely. I'm all for on line registration for those who are regulars. Same with tech. But, the new drivers need to come through registration and tech and learn the ropes. Once they done it a couple of times, they get the express waiver. But, just like our pro series, you break or bend the rules and you will pay a $$ fine. No whining. At our pro race least night, teams from the first race were told not to load their cars while the second race was running so as not to block pit lane. One ignored the directive and was immediately fined $500. No one else loaded early. I like it!

 

I don't know who Mike is, but my post was a hypothetical on the internet and you seemed to have taken it personally. Also, I forgot SRF which I would definitely keep which probably would adjust some of your numbers there...

 

Anyways, I've heard your argument many times in the SCCA and it seems we will be keeping all 25+ classes forever.

[granracing]

Super Tour - I've been racing with SCCA for a while now and didn't realize this was still a thing or what it even really is. 

 

For the North Atlantic Road Racing Championships at Lime Rock several Boy Scout troops used to come, camp for the evening and watch racing the next day.  It was awesome for them and us racers.  Seeing young kids walking around with our used tires or whatever else falls off the cars with a huge grin was priceless.  Now we don't even have this event nor have the Boy Scouts attend another event.  The fathers of the kids were also quite interested in knowing what was going on and how they could get involved.

 

At least in the N.E., we have too many races that as Mike Dickerson pointed out years ago dilutes everything.  It's not possible to go to each event for the majority of us, and now fields are impacted which then has a snowball effect making it less attractive to go to other events.

[Jim Creighton]

Taking it personally? Never. Me take a hike? My knees will barely allow me to walk. And even if it's only half the classes, the SARRC series will be there.  SRF3 definitely but adds one more run group and now we are to the six most everyone runs now. So, other than dropping a qualifying, how does it help track time?  Then, still only half the entries as now so how do we cover costs (many regions already run a non race street car group to supplement costs)? This question has to be answered before you can actually drop classes.

 

The PDX/track experience does allow the public to run what you brung. The trouble seems to be getting the word out to the public that they can bring their street rocket/SUV to the track and drive it as fast as they want. At Road Atlanta, we've had it for years and still only 30 to 40 cars. Here's where you can help. Tell anyone/everyone when there is an event like this. The more interest you can help spread, the more the word gets out.

 

Again, not trying to offend anyone. Just trying to explain how we got where we are now from where we were. And I didn't even cover trying to get a paper entry form mailed to you so you could mail it back with a check. Some registrars required the request be in writing!  And sorry, Andrew. didn't mean to call you Mike.

 

 

[gerglmuff2]

not really sure how talking about registration by mail is exactly relevant to the conversation of starting with a blank sheet of paper and designing a new SCCA. 

feels pretty "walked up hill both ways in the snow" to me. 

[granracing]

Track Night in America seems to be going quite well but not sure if they are trying to keep that quite separate from marketing Club Racing. 

 

Regarding spectators, some SCCA races are non-spectator events where people need to be added to someone's crew list even if that's over crew.  Imagine this is done for insurance reasons?

[LarryKing]

I don't know why having spectators is such an issue for some regions/divisions. The SEDiv has many/most of their events open to the public. VIR even advertises SCCA events. The CFR's Daytona Showcase in May is an excellent model of how to promote club events. It ain't rocket surgery.

[LarryKing]

 

feels pretty "walked up hill both ways in the snow" to me.

 That's kind of a shit sandwich, isn't it?

[Steve Scheifler]

I don't know why having spectators is such an issue for some regions/divisions. The SEDiv has many/most of their events open to the public. VIR even advertises SCCA events. The CFR's Daytona Showcase in May is an excellent model of how to promote club events. It ain't rocket surgery.

As mentioned already, possibly insurance. We had a period of time when races here weren’t open to the public for that reason. Nobody thought that was a good idea but contrary to auto sales math you can’t lose money on every race and make it up in volume. Eventually they got coverage again at a rate they could tolerate, or maybe that was bundled into sanction fees, not sure, but we’ve been covered for some years now.

[OrangeCrush86]

Taking it personally? Never. Me take a hike? My knees will barely allow me to walk. And even if it's only half the classes, the SARRC series will be there.  SRF3 definitely but adds one more run group and now we are to the six most everyone runs now. So, other than dropping a qualifying, how does it help track time?  Then, still only half the entries as now so how do we cover costs (many regions already run a non race street car group to supplement costs)? This question has to be answered before you can actually drop classes.

 

The PDX/track experience does allow the public to run what you brung. The trouble seems to be getting the word out to the public that they can bring their street rocket/SUV to the track and drive it as fast as they want. At Road Atlanta, we've had it for years and still only 30 to 40 cars. Here's where you can help. Tell anyone/everyone when there is an event like this. The more interest you can help spread, the more the word gets out.

 

Again, not trying to offend anyone. Just trying to explain how we got where we are now from where we were. And I didn't even cover trying to get a paper entry form mailed to you so you could mail it back with a check. Some registrars required the request be in writing!  And sorry, Andrew. didn't mean to call you Mike.

 

I'm not trying to help track time directly. I'm trying to increase competition which is nearly the only selling point of SCCA Club Racing. Having 6 run groups with diluted fields isn't retaining people. There are many posts on this site of people saying they won't enter an event because not enough people are signed up. Only 6 SMs registered? Everyone stays home purely due to car count.

[granracing]

2019 Lime Rock registration just opened up, with 16 min qual. in the morning, and 18 qual sprints (can't race on Friday at LRP, cause that's so different than the noise generated this way).  Sat 20 min race in am, and 20 min race in pm.  Early entry fee is, gulp, $475!

 

It's not the regions fault and the number of entries have significantly been reduced causing these entry fee rates at an expensive track.  Certainly makes me think multiple times about how I'm justifying this other than it's the only regional at LRP this year. 

[gerglmuff2]

i mean not to put too fine a point on it, but yes, it is the regions fault for falling car counts. 

[OrangeCrush86]

i mean not to put too fine a point on it, but yes, it is the regions fault for falling car counts. 

 

Depends on how you word that. If high entry fees are the reason, this isn't something the region can control. The racetracks keep raising prices to stay profitable. When it comes to road racing this is especially easy for them because they are not responsible to get car counts. Same with peoples financials, if there is an economic recession car counts always go down.

[gerglmuff2]

Depends on how you word that. If high entry fees are the reason, this isn't something the region can control. The racetracks keep raising prices to stay profitable. When it comes to road racing this is especially easy for them because they are not responsible to get car counts. Same with peoples financials, if there is an economic recession car counts always go down.

 

i mean its a business right? 

we blame businesses that fail, we don't blame folks for not buying what they are selling if they dont want it.

 

unless we can blame millennials, then we say they are "killing" whatever no one wants to buy. inb4 millennials are killing road racing (while selling out gridlife events around the country).

[Steve Scheifler]

Gridlife “sells out” (whatever that means) six (6) Track Battle rounds for 2019. SCCA has that many race events NEXT WEEKEND. Other than involving automobiles on a track they are not even remotely comparable. Do you really not get that?

[gerglmuff2]

Gridlife “sells out” (whatever that means) six (6) Track Battle rounds for 2019. SCCA has that many race events NEXT WEEKEND. Other than involving automobiles on a track they are not even remotely comparable. Do you really not get that?

 

i do. 

do you really understand that the its an event full of committed, serious, and cash filled millennials that trailer and drive from all over the country to qualify?

you know, exactly the folks that we should be marketing to with club racing. but your all stuck in the 1970's with mail in registration stories and thinking spectators don't matter. again .... if it doesn't make a great youtube video, the event might as well not even have happened. thats why gridlife sells out. because media is cheap, easy, and hugely popular. 

if we don't change how we market our sport, we'll die. 

[Steve Scheifler]

Round one had a whopping 68 drivers. Wow, impressive, put them all out there at once and you’d almost match a good SM OR SRF field, or the turnout of a failing SCCA event. Something resembling indoor motocross or ice racing, and truck pulls, sell out arenas across the country. We aren’t them either.

How about a specific constructive suggestion?

[gerglmuff2]

Round one had a whopping 68 drivers. Wow, impressive, put them all out there at once and you’d almost match a good SM OR SRF field, or the turnout of a failing SCCA event. Something resembling indoor motocross or ice racing, and truck pulls, sell out arenas across the country. We aren’t them either.

How about a specific constructive suggestion?

 

if you have not picked up on a specific suggestion then i dont know what to tell you. 

[Steve Scheifler]

More video and hype on Facebook and YouTube, and start charging spectators at the gate. That’s it? Problems solved?