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SCCA Road Racing is in Trouble!

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#181
gerglmuff2

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One approach to increase participation and spectators is to make the whole weekend more attractive. Add non-racing events: music, food trucks, booths, etc. We racers are having plenty of fun so focus on bringing new people to the tracks. The tracks are usually large venues with plenty of extra space.

 

When non-racing friends ask me about spectators, I laugh and tell them the only spectators at SCCA events are people related to drivers or paid by drivers (crew). If you've ever brought a non-racing guest to a race weekend, you realize that there is nothing for them to do after the initial "Wow!" factor wears off. in the Southeast, the only non-racing event most weekends is the Saturday night BBQ and beer for volunteers; most racers don't even attend. 

 

Why not have music Friday and Saturday nights? Decent bands will play for $500 - $1,000, not a huge amount for a region given a racing weekend budget. 

 

Food sucks at most tracks (thank goodness for me and others at OPM that Tom married Tracy!) so why not invite food trucks? They cost nothing and you can even charge them a fee. 5 food trucks at $100 pays for a band.

 

Non-racing activities are non-existent at most tracks. Why not have an entertainment chair? Activity booths - around Charleston, the latest craze is axe-throwing booths. Crazy idea but people are lining up to participate. Give the wives, girlfriends, boyfriends something to do besides saying "Nice race, honey."

 

Have something for kids to do. If we really want the dreaded millennials to participate (Yes!), recognize they are probably bringing their kids and give them something for their kids to do - jump castle anyone?

 

How about a beer fest? With the long summer evenings, there would be time for a series of local craft beer booths (plus a PBR keg for Collins).

 

These are just a few ideas that a 63 year old white guy came up with. But I have 5 kids who have their own kids. I listen to them and see what they like. SCCA and regionals need to do so, too. 

 

that 500-1000 bucks .... probably even better spent on a video guy. 


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#182
OrangeCrush86

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Our region tried to get food and local micro breweries to our races. It was nothing but roadblocks we as a region couldn't afford to tackle.

 

Beer truck requires licensing, often times the race track will block this anyways.

Food trucks require the race track to allow them, they will block them because they either serve their own food, or already have a contract with a vendor.

Live music we haven't tried, but that's because we race at Brainerd International Raceway and they have a full service bar with a stage and live music already (part of why racing here is my favorite).

 

Mike Collins summed it up in one of the best ways I have seen yet. SCCA Club Racing is vintage racing. That is why we have 25+ classes. It's so the two 45 year old Formula Vees that show up have a class to run in.

 

I also like his assessment of the Super Tour. Get it out of club racing, it's a semi-pro event. Run it with SCCA Pro Racing and mix it with Trans Am and F3/F4. This would also give some of us club racers a chance to cross over with the pro series occasionally which would feel great as a small time racer.


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#183
Tom Sager

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I also like his assessment of the Super Tour. Get it out of club racing, it's a semi-pro event. Run it with SCCA Pro Racing and mix it with Trans Am and F3/F4. This would also give some of us club racers a chance to cross over with the pro series occasionally which would feel great as a small time racer.

 

What makes combining it with T/A or F3/F4 difficult is the track schedule for the weekend.  There's a desire that's been expressed here to reduce ST events down to 2 days.  Hard to cram that into 2 days or even 3 with the track time that T/A and F3/F4 demand.


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#184
Jim Creighton

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Food trucks are a great idea but most tracks will not allow you to bring anyone in since they have a contract with a food vendor.

 

At our SEDiv midyear Majors SARRC races at Roebling Road which I organize, we have a hospitality tent with free cold water, free ice cream and snacks for all. We also an area where there are free toys for the kids. I buy match box cars and legos at thrift stores all year and the kids can play with and keep any they like. Also have kids games. We also have free watermelon all weekend at the snack shack.

 

We have music on Saturday night along with a boxed home cooked dinner and fresh desserts. The beverages are a variety of individual brands, not cheap kegs. Also wine for those whose taste are different. We have a used book exchange and a t shirt exchange. Bring what you don't need and take what you want.

 

This race is scheduled this year for June 29th and 30th. Our entry fee is only $395 and you get a discount for cash or check. All Runoff class drivers get Majors points and any who want SARRC points also get them. Trophies are on track photos of your car from the event mounted on a wooden plaque.  Here is the link to registration.  https://www.motorspo...division-581862

 

Hope you join us for a fun race weekend. The Spec Miata & SMSE races are usually the best of the weekend.



#185
OrangeCrush86

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What makes combining it with T/A or F3/F4 difficult is the track schedule for the weekend.  There's a desire that's been expressed here to reduce ST events down to 2 days.  Hard to cram that into 2 days or even 3 with the track time that T/A and F3/F4 demand.

 

Yep. It will never happen. This goes back to my original post that the upper echelons of motorsport don't support club racing. I recently read an article contributing this to the downfall of NASCAR. Twenty-five years ago a back woods circle track racer could climb to the top. Now you only get to NASCAR if your wealthy parents groom you specifically for that series. The regular Joe at home drinking a Natty Ice can't relate to drivers like that.


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#186
Steve Scheifler

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I don’t necessarily advocate running HST with some pro events, I haven’t thought that through, but that could be done if you whittle the HST eligible classes down dramatically to those with a certain minimum participation and appeal. For those who think a club needs to provide a Runoffs for all with at least 10 cars, I get that even if I don’t necessarily agree. But treat HST as if semi-pro and you immediately see the logic of dropping most of them. Of course now you are starting to encroach on other series like MX-5 Cup already partnering with pros. Maybe they become the headliner rather than the support. Not sure I like any of that, but something to chew on.
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#187
Mike Collins

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I don’t necessarily advocate running HST with some pro events, I haven’t thought that through, but that could be done if you whittle the HST eligible classes down dramatically to those with a certain minimum participation and appeal. For those who think a club needs to provide a Runoffs for all with at least 10 cars, I get that even if I don’t necessarily agree. But treat HST as if semi-pro and you immediately see the logic of dropping most of them. Of course now you are starting to encroach on other series like MX-5 Cup already partnering with pros. Maybe they become the headliner rather than the support. Not sure I like any of that, but something to chew on.

I've done a lot of chewing.... Yes you have to pair down currently eligible classes...  Yes HST will still be amateur racing but with a semi-pro feel....  Run the series for prizes and a shot at the runoffs or run the two closest ones to you paired with local regional races to make the runoffs (divisional points).  Break the runoffs in half.....  HST classes . and Then different event or costal events for Historic's AKA the ARRC or something like that.... 

 

I'm not advocating running HST with some pro events.... I'm advocating running some of the SCCA owned pro series with HST events. An SCCA bridge that is lacking.... I'm also advocating SCCA Pro runs the series so it gets dedicated leadership and doesnt change venue to venue, official to official....


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#188
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I've done a lot of chewing.... Yes you have to pair down currently eligible classes...  Yes HST will still be amateur racing but with a semi-pro feel....  Run the series for prizes and a shot at the runoffs or run the two closest ones to you paired with local regional races to make the runoffs (divisional points).  Break the runoffs in half.....  HST classes . and Then different event or costal events for Historic's AKA the ARRC or something like that.... 

 

I'm not advocating running HST with some pro events.... I'm advocating running some of the SCCA owned pro series with HST events. An SCCA bridge that is lacking.... I'm also advocating SCCA Pro runs the series so it gets dedicated leadership and doesnt change venue to venue, official to official....

Isn't all that's left of SCCA PRO is F3 and F4? 


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#189
Mike Collins

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Isn't all that's left of SCCA PRO is F3 and F4? 

Technically SCCA Pro still "owns" TransAM and the name but has an agreement for the management of that series to be outsourced for 25 years.  (23 more years).

 

TransAm and F4/3 Compete at other events, both Pro and Historic with other organizations including F1 at COTA.  Not suggesting we replace those but have them co-locate with a version of the HST weekends that would be premier SCCA weekends.


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#190
Peter Olivola

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Technically SCCA Pro still "owns" TransAM and the name but has an agreement for the management of that series to be outsourced for 25 years.  (23 more years).

 

TransAm and F4/3 Compete at other events, both Pro and Historic with other organizations including F1 at COTA.  Not suggesting we replace those but have them co-locate with a version of the HST weekends that would be premier SCCA weekends.

 

 

There are two ways this would work and both would be significantly disruptive of current operations and participant experience.

 

You already mentioned reducing the number of classes in the HST program.  The issues there are obvious.  But one of the the significant complications is the problem John Nesbit raised when he pointed out that class participation differs from region/division/conference to region/division/conference.  How many classes are top 10 in all divisions/conferences?

 

Another way to reduce the classes/groups to fit the pro groups into a weekend would be to split the events, with production based and GT cars partnering with TransAm on one weekend and purpose built classes partnering with F3/F4 on a different weekend.  It may not be possible to get the additional weekends at desirable tracks and it would double the staffing commitment for volunteers.  The number of competitors who would have to attend both weekends may be small, but not zero.

 

Those are the among the eggs that would have to be broken to make the omelette.



#191
Peter Olivola

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Isn't all that's left of SCCA PRO is F3 and F4? 

 

And Bob Wright's Formula Race Promotions.  There also appears to be a possible SRF pro series shaping up for 2020.



#192
Steve Scheifler

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And Bob Wright's Formula Race Promotions. There also appears to be a possible SRF pro series shaping up for 2020.


More info on the SRF Pro concept? Seems like a natural but could significantly impact club racing.
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#193
Steve Scheifler

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If I were looking at changes to HST so they could partner with pro series I’d plan on just a few run groups. But first I would want to crunch a lot of numbers. What has HST accomplished so far and what trends are emerging? Turnout has been pretty good at some but do the numbers show that it has produced a net increase in total participation? Financially? The original topic, and certainly the broader problems, are not about HST, but that series impacts the rest so how well it’s working should be a factor in future planning overall.

If HST is not proving to be a significant net plus in overall participation then I’d be more inclined to take the next big step because I think it negatively impacts other events. I haven’t studied participation numbers closely so the specifics might change a little, but my goal would be just four run groups assuming that would work with a F3/F4 partnership. SRF3 and SM of course. FE seems the most obvious fit but even FE and FE2 combined don’t add up to a lot. However, if announced well in advance and marketed, I expect that would change. So barring evidence to the contrary I would pencil that in which leaves room for one group. GT2 has boomed lately and GT1 is just plain big-bore fun. Run together with a split start I think they would be an excellent fourth group to contrast with everything else on offer. But, I also considered them as a more natural fit with Trans Am weekends, in which case perhaps include American Sedan in that mix. (AS has fallen on hard times and wouldn’t otherwise make my cut.) On the other hand, would Trans Am want an amateur race faster than their TA2 class? And don’t they already split some weekends to parter with others? But if the GT cars can partner with Trans Am then that opens one slot. I think it would be hard to ignore STL given it’s trajectory and the mix of makes & models. With continued fine tuning it could be an even stronger class. And then the manufacturers take notice and screw it up. :)

Obviously that means everyone else is out of HST. I’ve talked to a few drivers in various small production classes, some really like the whole HST thing and say they race more because of it, others just see it as a more expensive (entries and travel) path to the Runoffs. I’m sure there would be a range of reactions. Part of the number crunching would be to estimate how much the HST has cannibalized the other events and how many of those, if left out of the new HST, will still race as often without it. If the most important factor is decent car counts in their class then the non-HST events start looking better again and total participation may actually increase. Those kinds of answers and projections could make or break any big overhaul concept.

Condensing HST and partnering it with pro events may somewhat help participation in the remaining club racing events but it doesn’t address or negate all the other challenges and ideas discussed above. Over the years we’ve had people try some of the things discussed to draw spectators. For example, getting local TV news crews out a few days in advance for a ride around. That yielded a decent TV spot and as I recall a noticeable number of curious spectators, but as someone described earlier they were mostly families attracted to something a little different and free to burn a few hours. That’s great and all but extremely unlikely to lead to new participants. Still, as I mentioned previously with a few active members seeking out every free or nearly free opportunity to draw people in you increase the odds of one getting hooked. And yes, video and a better web presence needs to be part of that, but I believe direct comparisons to the small-scale likes of Gridlife are unrealistic. If they had 100 track events instead of 5 would they draw as many people from as far away to each? Never mind, it’s an unwinnable, though not pointless, debate.

BTW, qualifying is often easier to watch, follow and understand than races and produces a lot more drama if presented correctly. Has anyone not watched F1 this decade? Even for Indy cars which have some pretty good road racing due to a largely spec chassis, qualifying is pretty cool. For people coming from F&F street racing, drag racing and drifting, I’d argue that Time Attack (or whatever) with wild cars would draw and satisfy a lot better than the average SCCA road race. Not even a contest.
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#194
Steve Scheifler

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Hey Mike, it would be excellent if you could upload that PP presentation and provide a link. Or barring that I’d very much like to get a copy. ss510 at att.net
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#195
Peter Olivola

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More info on the SRF Pro concept? Seems like a natural but could significantly impact club racing.

 

Not posted to the website yet, but there should be something soon.  https://scca-e.com/

 

There's actually a three event schedule for this year.

 

VIR, July 26-28 with FRP, F3 & F4, SRF3. (Registration opens June 17 at MSR) 
Sebring, Sept. 13-15 with F3, F4, MX5, SRF3, FE & FE2. (Schedule TBD)
COTA, Nov. 14-16 with 24Hr-Creventic, Radical Cup & SRF3.


#196
Chris D.

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 Ummm....wow.   I just went to sign up for my first SCCA race in about 10 years.   I've run Waterford Hills exclusively for many years.  I wanted a change this year and hit some different tracks.   

 

Grattan Regional

One car...both weekend races

........$350.........

You've got to be f'in kidding me....

 

I'm going to do it anyway because I have no common sense.   But, this entry fee is an absolute joke......


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#197
ner88

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so, play the part of a race director, lets use Lime Rock park as an example.

Track rental for two days $60K (or hovering around that number)

Lime Rock does include wreckers, ambulances and people to support them, in their rental.

Events are Friday and Saturday, both have late starts. racing is not allowed on Friday (qualifying and practice only.

Feed the workers and usually racers are invited. (all food, beer and wine must be purchased from the track (could easily exceed $6K)

Track contracts generally allow each driver three crew and charge extra for overage.

Although not having been involved in a while, I would say a good car count would be 170 and as low as 150.

Now, do the math......and if rain is in the forecast, you'll probably lose 30% of your entries.

What should the entry fee be? keep in mind if it rains the track still gets paid.



#198
Steve Scheifler

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$60k for two days at Lime Rock? Never driven it but looks like a relative snore. Given that and the draconian restrictions I’d try to get together with other groups who use it and force the price down. I doubt Grattan is that high but the $350 sounded about right to me unless turnout is reliably strong for the regional.
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#199
John Nesbitt

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 Ummm....wow.   I just went to sign up for my first SCCA race in about 10 years.   I've run Waterford Hills exclusively for many years.  I wanted a change this year and hit some different tracks.   

 

Grattan Regional

One car...both weekend races

........$350.........

You've got to be f'in kidding me....

 

I'm going to do it anyway because I have no common sense.   But, this entry fee is an absolute joke......

 

What was the equivalent entry fee at Grattan 10 years ago?  I suspect that it was a fair bit less.

 

Two reasons:  nominal prices for most things have gone up in 10 years (inflation); and, track rentals, by far the largest single event expense, have generally gone up even more.  

Track rentals are a sellers' market.

 

Your surprise stems from the 10-year absence.  Entry fees generally have gone up some most years - $15 or $20 or $25 at a time - reflecting escalating costs.  Year-to-year, it is not such a shock.

 

On edit:  A quote search indicates that CPI-U (consumer price index) increased just a fraction under 20% in the 10 years from April 2009 to April 2019.



#200
Chris D.

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What was the equivalent entry fee at Grattan 10 years ago?  I suspect that it was a fair bit less.

 

Two reasons:  nominal prices for most things have gone up in 10 years (inflation); and, track rentals, by far the largest single event expense, have generally gone up even more.  

Track rentals are a sellers' market.

 

Your surprise stems from the 10-year absence.  Entry fees generally have gone up some most years - $15 or $20 or $25 at a time - reflecting escalating costs.  Year-to-year, it is not such a shock.

 

On edit:  A quote search indicates that CPI-U (consumer price index) increased just a fraction under 20% in the 10 years from April 2009 to April 2019.I 

I am honestly not sure what the cost was 10 years ago.   My only recent point of reference is our local track here (Waterford Hills).   You pay a $200 yearly membership, and then each full race weekend was only $205.   It stayed very consistent over many years.  This was just *total* sticker shock to me.   I understand economics drives a lot of this, but the entry fees alone have to be driving quite a few away.  I can't speak to if SCCA road racing is or isn't in trouble as this thread states, but the cost of entry has to be number one in many racers' minds.  I can't bring myself to even look ahead at the entry fees for the other SCCA regionals on my list this year.....I like to spread out my emotional distress.     :blink:


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